Today I had on Patrick Fransen from purpose-driven incubator and investment fund, Pebble Wave.

Patrick sold his previous company for double-digit millions. But he doesn’t define this as success. Afterward, Patrick joined Pebble Wave as a partner to support the advancement of global consciousness by building and investing in conscious, purpose-driven companies and leaders.

These are companies that create massive societal impact without compromising on profitability or personal wellbeing.

Patrick is incredibly insightful and his approach is to create systems and solutions that can benefit not just company leaders and those around them but the entire world.

Patrick and his company invest in entrepreneurs that say “Yes, I want to be myself, I want to discover my talents, I want to get rid of my limiting beliefs and do what I am here on earth to do.”

If you’re someone that’s on a journey to add more purpose to your life, to your business, or someone looking for impact investors to fuel your business, this is an episode for you.

If you like the show, please share it with a homie, tag me on social and definitely subscribe. It truly means a lot to me.

Enjoy the show!

LISTEN to this pod right here by clicking play or choose your favorite listening platform below. You can also WATCH the video podcast below that! Check out the show notes at the bottom to get more details about the contents of this episode. Enjoy!

Show notes as a general guide below. Somewhat in order and not written in perfect grammar because we want you to actually listen to the show!

  • Patrick’s last oh shit moment
  • Why Pat never considered selling his company a success
  • How Patrick discovered his purpose
  • How has Pat’s purpose changed over the years?
  • Patrick tells us about Pebble Wave investing
  • What a millionaire investor looks for in a founder
  • The 6 pillars a company is required to take a purpose-driven approach
  • The most important pillar
  • Pat tells us the importance of personal development while working for a company
  • Patrick tells us about top two traits for a conscious leader to embody.

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Below is a transcript of the video podcast created by Seb’s Robot buddy, Zekton. He tends to make mistakes so please forgive him if you find errors or some funky sounding sentences. For the real deal, watch the video or click on your favorite audio Podcast platform above! Enjoy!

Sebastian Naum (00:07):
What up guys? Today I had on Patrick Fransen from Purpose-Driven Incubator and Investment Fund Pebble Wave. Patrick sold his previous company for double digit millions, but he doesn’t define that as success. Afterward, Patrick joined Pebble Wave as a partner to support the advancement of global consciousness by building and investing in conscious purpose-driven companies and leaders. These are companies that create massive societal impact without compromising unprofitability or personal wellbeing. Patrick is incredibly insightful and his approach is to create systems and solutions that can benefit not just the company leaders and those around them, but the entire world. Patrick and his company invest in entrepreneurs that say, yes, I want to be myself. I want to discover my talents. I want to get rid of limiting beliefs and do what I am here on earth to do. If you’re someone that’s on a journey to add more purpose to your life, to your business, or someone looking for impact investors to fuel your business, this is an episode for you. And guys, if you’ll like the show, please share it with a homie. Tag me on social and definitely subscribe. It truly means the world to me. Enjoy the show.

Sebastian Naum (01:22):
Patrick, welcome to the show.

Patrick Fransen (01:25):
Thank you very much for having me.

Sebastian Naum (01:27):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Pat. Um, I, I always ask people on my show, the very first thing I ask him is, what was your last oh moment? What is the first thing that <laugh>, what is the first thing that comes to mind? And it could be a good thing or it could be a bad thing, but something that made you go, oh.

Patrick Fransen (01:47):

Patrick Fransen (01:50):
Well, I had, I, I was on, uh, I was on a retreat with <inaudible> and had this fantastic opportunity to start a collaboration, a partnership, um, with an organization that’s very close to him. And then, uh, all things went well and there was a lot of interest, mutual interest, and it seemed like, ah, this was a, a gift from heaven meant to be. Uh, and then suddenly, uh, for some reason the interest changed, um, which was fine, which was fine, was probably not a moment at that time. Yeah. And then I felt like, oh my God, I have to fix this. I have to fix this. And I started, uh, thinking of all the fantastic, uh, things we could do together and not realizing that I was, was clinging onto this opportunity way too much, actually. Yeah. And by trying to convince the other party to, to keep on working with this or, or find, find a solution, even pushing them away a little bit cuz I was too eager.

Patrick Fransen (03:02):
And then I thought, oh, this was, I, I, I, I ruined the, the opportunity myself instead of just letting things happen. And that was, uh, that was a big oh moment. I realized it, and actually it learned me a lot about letting go of expectations and, and, and desired outcomes when you’re connecting to people and, and just letting the space open for the right next step to emerge. Yeah. Uh, so it was an oh moment. And at the same time I learned a lot from it. And, um, when I let go of these, uh, this connection with expectations and leaving the expectations parts aside, many good things suddenly starts to emerge other parts, other solutions. Uh, and that was great. Yeah.

Sebastian Naum (04:03):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. I think that, I mean, anyone that’s gonna, if you have an opportunity to work with Eckhart Till and that you just get excited about it and happen. Right. And so, yeah. I, it’s, it’s a really interesting dance between pushing to make something happen and then allowing it. Right. And so it’s like you could, you could eventually, you could, uh, you could compare it to like, maybe, you know, going on a date, uh, with a girl that you really like. Yeah. How, how much interest, how much interest do you show? How much do you try to make it work? And then how much, at what point do you push that person away? Interesting. Right. And it’s, it’s just, it’s a tough, it’s a tough thing to do.

Patrick Fransen (04:44):
Yeah. It’s exactly the same thing. And, and, and I like the word that you said, dance. So we approached, we danced a little bit, then the other, partly he said, ah, um, I take some space. And instead of saying, ah, I leave some space, I ran after it. And then it allowed the space to happen for the next pass of the dance. So, yeah. Yeah. That’s exactly,

Sebastian Naum (05:06):

Patrick Fransen (05:06):
Exactly what we’re talking about.

Sebastian Naum (05:08):
Yeah. It’s just not an easy thing sometimes cuz you don’t know where, at what point do you stop, you know, the dance at what point, you know, and it’s just part of life. But I guess, hey, look, if we’re gonna use the same analogy with, you know, a partner, then I think if it’s meant to be, it’s gonna, it’s gonna be meant to be. Right. And so, right. Yeah. That’s great. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that, pat. In 2004, you sold your company for double digit millions. And, uh, in a keynote of yours in a speech, you were, you’re stating that basically this is not success. This is not success. In fact, it’s, it’s irrelevant. And I think that most people would be completely taken back by you calling that not success. So tell us a little bit about that.

Patrick Fransen (05:52):
Yeah. Well, obviously there is, there is, there is materialistic success in it, as it is of course an achievement. And, and, and if you, if you just take it on, on a superficial, materialistic level, I’m of course very happy that that happened and that it gave me opportunities that to to, to, um, to get the space financially to do what I really like. But, um, my definition of success changed dramatically, uh, years before that happened. When, when before, I was not only, but a lot of my time was spent on thinking how could I raise the profitability of the company and do more of the same? And that I thought that I would be happy as a person and, and valuable as a person if I would have achieved a successful company, both in types of work we did, but also the numbers that the company generated and buying by being too much focused on that side.

Patrick Fransen (07:03):
I forgot the, the much more, uh, important and valuable part is, um, does this really fulfill you in life? And, uh, I believe that true success is, uh, being able to feel fulfilled as a person and, uh, create fulfillment in your surroundings for the people around you, which can be employees, customers, partners, your relatives, family, friends, uh, et cetera, anyone, actually. And that is a much more profound definition of success. Um, and actually, uh, my experience meanwhile is that, uh, if you allow authentically without the grasping that we refer to in the previous question, to, uh, follow this, this truth, authentic fulfillment for yourself, that creates happiness, uh, for yourself and your surroundings, that actually it doesn’t have to contradict the financial success that you generate. On the contrary, if you truly, uh, follow your purpose, like we say, and this fulfillment, you’re actually much more valuable, uh, as a human being than just, uh, chasing the, the superficial materialistic realizations. And if you allow yourself to convert the value that you bring in as a person, bringing fulfillment to people also in your business, uh, and translate it into business model and financial means, you generate even much more absolutely, uh, profits and, and, and revenues. Whereas that is not the goal in itself, right? It’s just something that comes to you to allow yourself to be even more impactful and, and feel much more fulfilled. So my true definition of success in life is actually, uh, purpose realization and fulfillment that you bring to yourself and your surroundings.

Sebastian Naum (09:17):
Pat, how did you realize your purpose? You said it started before you sold the company, you started Realiz, that that wasn’t the definition of success for you. How did you discover that?

Patrick Fransen (09:28):
Well, uh, it took me several years, 35 actually, to be precise. So, uh, I happen to be not one of those people that from childhood know, I want to become this or I want to do that. Uh, I’ve, I’ve actually been circling around in, in many directions, trying many different things, and I was interested by a lot of different topics. But, um, uh, together with, uh, many limiting beliefs, in my case, very strong limiting beliefs were that I thought that I had to work hard and be smart to be successful, and then successful in this old definition of achievements, uh, materialistic achievements. And, uh, it was years before that when going down that path, I, uh, got myself into, uh, uh, a really big program at one of the largest customers that I was serving as a business consulting at the time. And that I thought, if I can make it on this program, then I will be successful the old way.

Patrick Fransen (10:40):
And it turned out completely the opposite way. And I didn’t understand at all what happened. So the customer, after a year into the program, uh, didn’t see the results that we planned for. Uh, and he kicked me off the program, whereas I thought in my head that I had all figured it out, put everything in the right place, worked really hard, came up with smart solutions, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And still it didn’t work. So that was, for me, really the mirror that started to make space for discovering my purpose, because I realized for the so much time that the way I had been doing things didn’t work. And it was at that point that I didn’t, uh, realize my purpose yet, but at least I started to ask the two most important questions in life according to me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which are, who am I?

Patrick Fransen (11:39):
And why am I here? Yeah. That’s when, when I started to ask those questions and allowing to look outside of what I, uh, until that point had been, uh, believing, um, that’s, that’s that slightly, uh, answers started to come up. And then through coaching and, and, and, and, uh, creating the space for discovery, then I suddenly felt like, oh, wow. Uh, I get excited by connecting people. I get excited by helping people to realize who they are. I get excited by system changing solutions that can really change the world. And then, then as these, uh, as these little bits emerged one by one, at some point I had a realization, okay, my purpose is somewhere in, uh, in supporting this, uh, this, uh, evolution of consciousness for humanity. And as an entrepreneur and a business connector, if I can contribute to that, wow, that would be phenomenal. Would that be possible? And just by saying that and, and feeling that there is energy in this direction,

Sebastian Naum (13:00):

Patrick Fransen (13:01):
It’s, it’s, it manifested itself.

Sebastian Naum (13:03):
That’s beautiful. That’s amazing. And it’s, it’s, uh, what a great journey you had. I think it’s an, it’s really important to consider that it doesn’t come right away. Like I, I believe, I think Deepak Chopra meditates, I think he says like two to three hours a morning, and he just asks himself like three or four questions before his meditation. And two of them are those same questions. Who am I? Why am I here? And then he says something else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he just sits there for a couple hours every single morning. Right Now, not all of us have maybe the, the luxury to be able to meditate now for three hours in the morning and ask ourselves those questions. But I think it’s something that I’ve constantly, I’ve asked myself that, and I’ve actually mm-hmm. <affirmative> grown up asking myself those questions, even as a little kid.

Sebastian Naum (13:49):
And, and even today, I don’t think that I’ll have clear answers. I think I have more clarity than I had in the past. I think it’s important to know, and for people to understand that it’s not, doesn’t come right away. It’s definitely a process. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in terms of figuring that out, you’re not gonna just sit there one time in one coaching session or one therapy session and just be like, cool, am I, why am I here? Okay, cool. And one weekend I figured out my purpose, and now I’m gonna go out on Monday and it’s gonna be all <laugh>. You know what I mean? No, it’s a process. Yeah.

Patrick Fransen (14:19):
To, to nuance that a little bit. And to add to that, in my case, it was a process, but it’s, uh, the more that I allowed myself to be myself, the more clearly it became. And, uh, it is our experience that, uh, if you open up into those deepest depths of yourself, that actually the answer is already there. And that you knew it already a long time. Um, and it’s the process of allowing yourself to really embody and embrace that purpose that brings in more and more clarity. So I would say I was all directions except for the one that, that was my part in this life. But as I understood it’s this direction, um, it didn’t change that much anymore. It just deepened and became,

Sebastian Naum (15:17):

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Patrick Fransen (15:39):
Clear and refined, but the direction was clearly set.

Sebastian Naum (15:44):
That’s wonderful. Yeah. I, I think it, I can see how it can be cuz you’re like, who are you? Who are you, we’re getting existential here, but, uh, like, who are you really? Like who am I, myself versus who, who is the persona that others see of me and the persona that I want others to see of me? Yes. Versus like me, really, there’s just so much of that. And I think one, for me personally, one thing that I’ve started to come to terms more over the last, let’s say three years, is that I am a lot of things that I don’t have to be just one thing or, you know, no, no. Right. And it’s like, you can be so many things and, you know, without being like, you know, maybe like schizophrenic, you know what I mean? Like, but I mean, truly you can be very different, you know, compartments in the life.

Sebastian Naum (16:30):
You are this as a friend, you are as a father here, as a business person here, you’re as, you know, whatever it is, right? So, um, I think that for me, that made it okay to be, that was more myself. I was actually mm-hmm. A very multifaceted human that had a lot of aspects of myself that in a way felt strange to show all of that into one, because in my head I was like, no, if I’m this way, if I’ve been this way for 10 years with this group of friends, then I must continue that. Otherwise it feels inauthentic. <laugh> and the truth, authenticity actually was being all the different ways, you know?

Patrick Fransen (17:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Still I have the feeling that there’s some common ground there. And what, what we, what we experience as we help entrepreneurs discover what their purpose is, is that the purpose is actually clear and you know it, but sometimes it’s very wide, it’s very broad, and it overspends more than just one company, for example. So if you have such a wide, uh, uh, purpose instead of some people have a very specific purpose, and then sometimes it happens that, uh, it gets more clear much sooner. And if you have a more white purpose with, with a much larger impact, you also need a lot more talents to actually contribute to that. And our belief in our experience is that your purpose is in, is an extension of your talents, and you already have all the talents that you need to realize that purpose. But if that purpose is brought, then sometimes you need a lot of ways and circling around to develop the talents that you have to actually on a later age, uh, fundamentally contribute to that talent, to that purpose. And that is in, in my case, it’s the case. So

Sebastian Naum (18:28):

Patrick Fransen (18:29):
I have interest not only in business, I also under undertake in education. I’m also talking even to politicians to, to figure out whether we can build a more conscious, purpose driven political system. Those are all interest me. And so I did things in all those areas, and then I was wondering, what, what should I do? What should I do? But all these endeavors that led apparently to nothing earlier in life skill to refined talents that I need to do a contribution to all of these domains. And now in my case, I’m focusing on business and changing the business world to become more conscious, purpose driven. But I won’t stop there. I also talk to educations and, and leaders in that field, and even healthcare and even politics. And then yeah, you, you, it’s, it sometimes becomes difficult to see what is the common denominator in all these, uh, facets.

Sebastian Naum (19:31):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely a journey. It’s definitely a journey. <laugh>, it sounds like you’re in very many aspects as

Patrick Fransen (19:37):
Well. Yeah. Yeah. And indeed, it, it’s infinite what you, what you refer to it is an infinite journey. And it is, and we are infinite in ourselves as well. Yeah.

Sebastian Naum (19:49):
Yeah. Pat, uh, the concepts that working hard equals success and, uh, simple cannot be valuable. These are concepts that we’ve, a lot of us have grown with. I mean, this is just how, what we’re taught work hard. You’ll receive success, right? You have to work hard to do this or that. Now, I dabble you had an epiphany that this was in fact not the case at all. And I dabble with this concept all the time, that, you know, flow and things must flow. They must be easy. The easier they are, the more you can manifest, the more value you can bring to others, the more you can create. Um, and so, and it’s sometimes it just feels very idealistic and beautiful. And then, and then at the times, it just, it just feels like sometimes you have to do a little bit of extra work and hustle a little bit extra hard to make things happen. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, do you feel that there are exceptions to the concept of flow and simplicity and everything shouldn’t have, has to be easy? Do you think that there are exceptions that sometimes you do just have to work hard or you feel like you can always find that way to make a way to make things easier and flow more?

Patrick Fransen (21:01):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>? Wow. That’s a good question. I, I don’t know if I have the answer to that

Sebastian Naum (21:07):

Patrick Fransen (21:10):
But, but let me feel what comes up. What comes up is actually, uh, um, uh, something that [inaudible] in a retreat I just joined. Mm. Which is, um, uh, postponing satisfaction. And what he meant was, or at least how I interpret it, is what we are, and I at least, uh, have been, uh, raised with, is that first you have to put in effort. And then when you achieve something, then you feel satisfaction. For example, you have to learn to play piano. You first have to learn the notes, you then have to practice a lot. And then at some point you will be fluent at piano playing. And the way he put it was he’s saying, well, that’s conventional wisdom. And there is a truth in it. Because in it, sometimes you need to put in some effort and practice to be, to become proficient at playing the piano. And if that’s what you like to do, that’s probably the part you have to go. Now, what the risk is with that, uh, is that it becomes a pattern. And that you always start postponing satisfaction and don’t enjoy the doing throughout a journey anymore. And if you postpone this all the time, then you achieve something and suddenly you have to, you need another, you need another goal to, to, uh, to, uh, to create a journey to dissatisfaction. And you’re always postponing satisfaction. Uh, whereas the true invitation of life, the deeper wisdom is

Patrick Fransen (23:03):
Find enjoyment in what you’re doing at this moment. And that way, if you do that, then eventually at some point you become a proficient piano player, but it doesn’t replace what happens in this moment anymore. So I think that’s a great way of putting it. And if you put it like that, I would say no. There is no exception.

Sebastian Naum (23:28):
That’s right.

Patrick Fransen (23:28):
At all. Uh,

Sebastian Naum (23:31):
It’s reframing. It’s reframing the work itself. Yeah.

Patrick Fransen (23:34):
And if I say I don’t work hard anymore, and working hard to achieve something is, uh, not the way to go. I mean that as you take out all the joy out of what you’re doing at the moment, because you think at some point in the future, I’m going to be successful. Yeah. That fee, that’s really hard. And then you are not a aware anymore that you might be on the wrong paths because you, the signal that you’re losing energy and that there is friction and tension you all link it to. Yeah. I just have to do, put in some more effort. And that’s what I meant with, I don’t do that kind of hard work anymore. And that’s kind of hard work. There is no exception to that. That’s always a signal that you’re on, that you’re doing something that’s not for you of gone too far or, or, or, or anything else.

Sebastian Naum (24:32):
Yeah. Those are great points. Yeah. I’ve, I’ve been very guilty myself of getting into that, uh, the addiction of achieving things and then waiting for that achievement to happen. And then when the achievement would happen, I actually would not feel as satisfied as I thought. Yeah. Cause I was just waiting for the next achievement and Exactly. And it’s something that I really work on. Yeah. I really had to work on that. And I think that today, I think maybe even the easiest, a simple analogy for me and where I feel this sort of satisfaction already is even in my, my physical exercise and working out, I am, no, I, I do not, I am not waiting for some sort of satisfaction at the end. I actually enjoy the process of exercising and working out, and I know that it’s constantly doing good for me. And it’s interesting process, and I love it every time I do it.

Sebastian Naum (25:18):
So it’s not like, oh, I’m gonna work out until I get to this weight, or I achieve this in this sport or this, you know? So I think for me, that’s, it’s been a good analogy in that sense. It’s just the process, the process. And it’s so, it’s so, like, people always say it’s not the destination, it’s the journey. And it sounds cheesy and all that, but it’s true. <laugh>. It’s true. It’s, it’s, it’s cheesy, but it’s true. But, you know, it’s just cuz and sometimes we hear those phrases over and over and over where they stop meaning things. But then if you really go back to the basics of that, that that’s really where it’s at.

Patrick Fransen (25:49):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So for us, the, the, the, the, whenever you are in the moment, you, you ask yourself, does this give me energy? And if it gives you energy more than you put into it, then you can do it endlessly. So I, I want to say, not working hard means that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to do anything on the contrary, the things that you love to do and give you energy, do a lot of that. Yeah. And do a lot of that. And, and then you’ll achieve things, but you’re already enjoying while you are doing it. Uh, and that is the true flow and energy and, and, um, uh, not, not, not the part where you feel that you have to force and, and, and cram things and, and, and, and, and that part. Yeah.

Sebastian Naum (26:36):
I love that. Yeah. I love that. Pat, uh, pebble wave, invest in conscious and purpose driven startups. What is your first set of requirements when you’re considering a company to invest in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that they must embody or have or, or shall

Patrick Fransen (26:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But may not only startups, but any company in any geography, any size, any domain. So the, the true criteria that we ask entrepreneurs if it feels right for them are three things. And the first one is, do we want to build your company as a purpose driven company where the, in the impact on society is the main criteria to take decisions, and at the same time, with sufficient autonomy levels. So all the people that share this purpose can contribute the best way to their talents to this purpose. That’s the first question. The second one is, do you want to get to know yourself into the deepest depths? And, and are you open to create space and become aware of the limiting leaves that you are holding that withhold you from actually doing that? And the third question is, do you want to do this in a CO2 neutral way?

Patrick Fransen (27:57):
Because in one hand we believe that that’s one of the crucial challenges we have to, uh, solve or we can solve as humanity. But at the same time, if you enter in this space of conscious purpose, then you feel that you’re part of a larger ecosystem. And, and that taking care of the planet is actually taking care of yourself and taking care of your company. So it benefits all of them. So if entrepreneurs feel, yeah, this, this feels right, and this is actually how I always wanted to, to, uh, to organize my company, then we are very interested to figure out together with them how they can become a conscious purpose company with the commitment to actually realize purpose, achieve fulfillment, unlock energy, and create a safe space where everybody can be themselves.

Sebastian Naum (28:51):
Love the three questions. And you guys have, uh, six pillars, right? That a company is required to take on a, a purpose-driven approach. Can you give us the, the basic lowdown, the general lowdown on those six pillars?

Patrick Fransen (29:05):
Yes. So the first one is, as a leader, being prepared to show yourself the way you are with all the goods and all the tensions, instinct that you’re carrying and, and wanting to, um, to grow, uh, as a person. The second one is this form of organization where prop purpose is upfront. And also that allows wholeness and contribution at a high level of autonomy by everyone. Um, third one is, is more the strategic pillars. Like, okay, what is then actually the purpose that we’re after? What are we going to contribute to society? What is the impact that we want to make? Translate that into the business model, and also the steps, how to get there. Once we have that, you can figure out what are the ideal products and services that we need to realize this, this business model, but deeper to actually contribute to this, to this purpose, to this, uh, and realize this impact.

Patrick Fransen (30:17):
And that’s the same thing for the commercial model. So a commercial model driven by the authentic purpose of the leaders. If you define it that way, it will be another commercial model than the one that’s based on market trends. And what you read and traditional ways of strategizing comes up with what’s the best group part for you. The sixth one is the financial model, uh, where the same, uh, concept applies. What, what are the levers to put in place to realize purpose and with, with, with the means that you have? Um, because they will always be limited. There will always be choices, uh, to be made. And if you look through lens of purpose, it’s, you will actually be more efficient and more effective in utilizing these, uh, resources. And then actually there is seven, um, that’s actually skills that the people in the company to work in such a company, which are, yeah, you have to organize yourself because you are working at a high level of autonomy. Autonomy. So you have to organize yourself getting things done and non-violent communication. Because if you’re gonna talk about our deepest tensions and barriers for growth, you need a loving and safe way to talk about that. Absolutely. And those are very quickly, the, the seven Pillars,

Sebastian Naum (31:53):
Pillars. Do you find that one is mo more important? I know they’re probably equally important, but is there one that really,

Patrick Fransen (32:03):
Um, the, the, they are all important and enforcing, uh, one another, but, but each in itself, uh, brings a lot of, uh, momentum and value, uh, to the company and to the world? Yeah. Um, I would say we always start with purpose because that defines the direction of the company and everything unfolds from there. The conscious part is more like is a lever that enables you to actually get there. If you don’t work on that part, you’re only gonna get that far, let’s say. And all the other ones, uh, enforce, uh, enforce, uh, the speed and the easiness and the momentum that you’re gonna gain towards that purpose. So I, we usually always start with purpose. Yeah. And then, uh, derive all the others from there. But it’s also obvious that if you can’t organize yourself, you can’t work in this manner. Uh, if you can’t talk safely, then you, you won’t be able to, even with the best intentions to create a space needed to grow as a person. So everything is connected, but yeah, purpose is definitely, if that is clear, then the direction is set, then the momentum goes into focus, and then you can optimize all the other things. Yes.

Sebastian Naum (33:38):
Sounds good. Pat, you’ve invested millions into various companies, purpose-driven companies, and some of the, these companies are doing really well, generating many millions in revenue. So you’ve, you’ve had a lot of contact with a lot of purpose-driven le leaders, and you have connections with them. You feel that purpose-driven leaders have to face, um, more barriers because they’re not just profits, uh, motivated by profits.

Patrick Fransen (34:11):
At first I thought that was the case, but then again, the realization is, is that it’s just a limiting relief. Right? Um, so, and that’s actually something we test very upfront in the process with working with leaders to, to, to get to the surface these limiting beliefs. And, um, why is it a limiting belief? And what is always a crucial tipping point when people start believing is the following insights.

Patrick Fransen (34:52):
Your purpose is an extension of your talents. And talents will defined by not what you learn at school usually. And there are also good schools, but, uh, in a traditional school as a skill. But the talent is that activity that you can do all day long and gives you more energy than it costs you. So what does that mean in, in reality, that means that those are activities for you. They come naturally. And if things come naturally, often you have to believe like, yeah, this is simple, everybody can do that, but it’s not a case. And so your purpose and your talents are things that are easy. And, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not super valuable. On the contrary, those things for other people are super hard. So if you do that for other people, those things that don’t cost you any energy or give you more energy than it costs, those are actually super valuable.

Patrick Fransen (36:04):
So what we almost always see, and also myself included, is that your talents are not rewarded in the business model. So you have to take that switch, that mind switch that what simple for me, what gives me energy is super valuable. And if then you translate it in the product, in, in a service, and you charge the real value it brings, then it’s super easy then. But that’s really, uh, uh, uh, uh, a switch in consciousness you have to make to, to, to embrace and believe yourself that what is easy for you is actually your highest value that you can bring and that you can charge it reasonable in the way. So we always see that if we ask, first of all, entrepreneurs don’t see the real value that they bring. And secondly, there is always a ceiling on how much it’s actually valuable and how much you should price it. Yeah. So if you, if you make that breakthrough, the whole company shifts and it’s actually easier to make, to be profitable with your purpose.

Sebastian Naum (37:29):

Patrick Fransen (37:30):
But it’s true that it’s not a common belief. A common belief is that Oh, yeah. You have to work hard <laugh>.

Sebastian Naum (37:37):
Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, going back to that, you know, purpose-driven leaders facing more barriers, if you do all that work, that shouldn’t really be the case. No. And so I’ll, I’ll, you know, before I let you go, I’ll ask you the importance of, you know, any, any young entrepreneur out there listening to this, it’s, you know, how important is it to go deep into personal development and I mean, personal work in order to become a better leader as opposed to just, I’ll think a lot of people and entrepreneurs think they have to get better at work, uh, with a business mentor or business coach, but how much of that is it really just not the business, it’s really that deep interpersonal development work that’s actually gonna make them better at their work?

Patrick Fransen (38:30):

Sebastian Naum (38:31):
That’s what we’ve been talking about essentially.

Patrick Fransen (38:34):
Yeah. We, we often, we often, we often state it, well, you, the, the, my answer is obvious <laugh>, but we, we state it often in the following way. If you take your whole life and anything, and you have to choose anything that you, that you give attention to, your attention to,

Patrick Fransen (39:06):
Um, it should be your personal growth. Because whatever you’re gonna manifest and realize and achieve or contribute, and that’s a better word, is one-to-one related with your level of consciousness, one-to-one. So we often say, and that’s not even important in the grander scheme of life and the universe, if you don’t do that, it’s also fine. And you’re also, uh, delivering a contribution to that. But if you have to choose something to devote some attention to, it would be that. Yeah. So yeah, it’s, it’s crucial. Yeah. Just one, once your process is your process, I couldn’t have had this insight if I hadn’t done 34, 5 years, something completely different. So it was my part, and it couldn’t have gone another way of denying that until the point that I couldn’t go on anymore.

Sebastian Naum (40:14):

Patrick Fransen (40:15):
So skilling yourself, if that’s what feels right to you at this point, do that. You cannot put your head think I need to work on myself. That will also not work. But if you put attention, bringing awareness of what feels right for you, what doesn’t feel right, what gives you energy and follow that, try to follow that. But you need also sometimes the, the, the, the, the ways around it to learn that it’s the truth.

Sebastian Naum (40:48):

Patrick Fransen (40:49):
And it’s just my truth. It’s not truth. <laugh>.

Sebastian Naum (40:54):
Yeah. I really love that insight, that your insights about really following what gives you energy. And when, you know, when you were talking about that earlier, I just, I love that concept so much, but then at the same time in my head, I thought, well, I was just thinking about a, um, a talk that I gave recently through conscious capitalism, Los Angeles mm-hmm. <affirmative> now, well, it took a lot of work to prepare the talk, right. It took energy to prepare all of that and get ready and, and all those things. And perhaps I was a little bit excited and kind of nervous or whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative> when you’re doing the whole thing. But when I went through and executed it, you know, I, I checked in to see how I felt after, and that was definitely an energy, an energy inducing, you know, um, process for me. And I can tell that I really, so it’s like, yes, it took work. Yes, it took energy to prepare and get ready and all that good stuff, but, but, but doing it, the process of doing it and then completing was truly satisfactory. And, and it did give me a lot of energy. I wasn’t like drained. It’s so different when you can tell mm-hmm. <affirmative> completely drained after something.

Patrick Fransen (42:03):

Sebastian Naum (42:04):
Versus like, ah, like truly satisfaction that, like, that felt good, you know? And then you wake up the next morning and I felt great that next morning, you know? And that’s how I could tell that it gave me more energy, even though it was still work. Right?

Patrick Fransen (42:16):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That’s a great, great example.

Sebastian Naum (42:21):
Yeah. I love that insight. Patrick. Patrick, um, what are two traits for a conscious leader to embody today?

Patrick Fransen (42:31):
You have to help me with my English. What is a trait?

Sebastian Naum (42:33):
Your top two traits, qualities, top two qualities for a conscious bo uh, conscious leader to embody

Patrick Fransen (42:41):
Well qualities, they are already inside you, so you don’t have to teach yourself anything. It’s more about unteaching yourself, things that limit you. Um, but I would say be alert for exactly that energy, that energy. Just bring alertness to that. Yeah. Bring alertness to that, that you feel, ah, this, this gains momentum. This is, this is for me, this doesn’t gain momentum. I feel tension probably. I need to think about myself.

Sebastian Naum (43:19):
So really sorry to interrupt you, but essentially an intuition to being with yourself. Like being able to, to see your own, to have your own intuition to what’s, you know, giving you energy, what’s not. Yeah. We

Patrick Fransen (43:32):
All, we all have these, these talents that are already authentic. Like the way you are preparing and, and, and facilitating this talk is definitely something that comes natural to you. So this is, this is a talent of you that’s free. And you will see also that, that you are doing other things that feels stressed and feel you feel tense just in and bring in the alertness that you, that you see that, and that you don’t ignore that. Yeah. And when you feel flow, just go further in that direction. And if you feel the tension, uh, then reflect on it and reflect on it. Is it truly my, my part or is there some limiting belief that says that I have to do this?

Sebastian Naum (44:20):

Patrick Fransen (44:20):
In just this one quality of, of, of observing that is actually a, a practical key to, to become more conscious. And as you become more conscious, you will, um, you will inspire your surroundings and, and, and lead into towards the direction that you want to go. And if you ask me to <laugh>, yeah. I have one more <laugh>. So this one is related to consciousness. Yeah. And then the second one is related to purpose. Yeah. Get that more clear and embrace that purpose. I, I, I’ve have one tip, uh, since, uh, since I made that shift from, uh, profit to purpose. Mm-hmm. I don’t have a to-do list anymore. I have a fun list. And the fun list is just all the things that, that come on my plate, that all the actions that I think I have to do. And I prioritize it based on two questions.

Patrick Fransen (45:40):
The first question is, does it bring me closer to my purpose? And I rank all of them, uh, and the one with the highest goal on top and the one with the lowest impact goal at the bottom. And then does it give me energy if it’s low, it comes here. If it’s high, it comes here. And I, I only do the, the, the top right things here. Only do that. And that’s truly embracing, because that is your purpose. And the more you do it, you always know what happens when you’re in a meeting and you’re doing those actions, what comes out of every meeting, more actions. But if it is there, then the action that come out of it are more fun. They’re even more close to your purpose and give you more energy. Uh, and that way you, you, you discover a very practically everyday warrior parties and then the things that are next to it, so that are high impact on your purpose, but don’t give you energy. Those are freer colleagues. And if you don’t have a colleague that gets energy out of those, then you need to hire a colleague.

Sebastian Naum (46:54):
That’s what I was saying, that was gonna be my question. It was high purpose, low energy, you got someone else to do it. Right. That’s essentially you, somebody that gives them energy, somebody that it’s not, you know, so difficult for them because some things do need to happen, right. To fulfill the purpose, but they don’t give you as much energy. And so, yes. Um, yeah. Absolutely. And that’s, and that’s a good thing too for entrepreneurs. It’s something that sometimes could be tough because that means that they have to invest and put out more money mm-hmm. <affirmative> or it means less income for them or whatever. And it’s like, but that’s, that’s not the point. If you stick to the purpose, at the end of the day, that money’s gonna flow anyway, so.

Patrick Fransen (47:28):
Exactly. Yeah.

Sebastian Naum (47:29):
Yeah, yeah. That’s wonderful, Patrick. Well, you truly are a conscious leader, so keep doing, you really appreciate

Patrick Fransen (47:36):
What you, I’m on parts and also have a lot of unconscious parts, but <laugh>, we take in that direction. Yes,

Sebastian Naum (47:42):
Exactly. You know, and, and, and by doing what you guys do, by investing in purpose-driven companies, by inspiring more leaders to be more conscious and, and, and, you know, investing in these wonderful companies that are making the world a better place, it’s, it’s a beautiful thing. And, and, uh, I commend you for it, and I, I appreciate you and thank you so much for being on today, Patrick. Really appreciate it. I had a lot of fun.

Patrick Fransen (48:01):
Thank you so much for having me and being able to share this. And we need a lot of people who also tap into this, to, to, to, to create a better world.

Sebastian Naum (48:12):
I agree. I agree. Thank you so much, Patrick.

Patrick Fransen (48:15):
You’re welcome.