In this podcast episode, Sebastian interviews Erwin McManus, renowned life architect, award-winning author, and artist. They discuss the nuances of success, the importance of authenticity, and the pursuit of greatness. McManus reflects on personal experiences, including surgeries and recovery, and how they shaped his outlook on life and image. They explore the weight of success, its potential to hinder risk-taking, and its effects on relationships. Erwin emphasizes staying grounded by valuing close relationships and honest feedback. Additionally, he shares his belief in human creativity and the transformative power of personal change.

LISTEN to this pod right here by clicking play or choose your favorite listening platform below. You can also WATCH the video podcast below that! Check out the show notes at the bottom to get more details about the contents of this episode. Enjoy!

Show notes as a general guide below. Somewhat in order and not written in perfect grammar because we want you to actually listen to the show!

Topics Discussed:

  • Physical Challenges and Positive Mindset
  • Image Management and Personal Style
  • The Value of Relationships
  • Understanding the Dynamics of Relationships
  • Choosing a Life Partner
  • Authenticity in Building an Audience
  • Pursuing Greatness and Authentic Expression
  • The universe of who you are
  • Writing for impact
  • Jesus beyond religion
  • The love story of Jesus
  • Running from and towards something
  • Potential and capacity
  • Living up to potential
  • Weight of success vs. failure
  • The weight of success
  • Marriage and success
  • Staying grounded
  • Creativity and spirituality
  • Changing the world
  • Traits of a conscious leader

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Below is a transcript of the video podcast created by Seb’s Robot buddy, Zekton. He tends to make mistakes so please forgive him if you find errors or some funky sounding sentences. For the real deal, watch the video or click on your favorite audio Podcast platform above! Enjoy!

Sebastian (00:00:01) – Erwin, what a great pleasure it is to have you in the studio. Brother, it’s, we met a year ago at Lewis House’s birthday, and I thought I got to have this amazing man on my podcast. And a year later, here we are. So I’m very grateful for you.

Erwin (00:00:14) – It’s good to be together, and it’s good to see you again.

Sebastian (00:00:16) – Absolutely, absolutely. Erwin, when I if I just ask you, when is your when was your last oh, shit moment, what is the first thing that comes to mind from, like, the last few weeks?

Erwin (00:00:25) – Wow. I’m not even sure. I don’t even know. I, I actually don’t even think like that. Probably, could.

Sebastian (00:00:31) – Be positive or negative. It could be anything, really. It’s just like, oh, shit. Right. Anything that comes to mind?

Erwin (00:00:36) – Yeah. yeah. My life is almost a daily, experience of unexpected. So I think there’s something probably every single day. But this morning when I got up, my, my wife’s assistant was downstairs.

Erwin (00:00:48) – I was running down to get a pair of pants, and I’m there in my boxers, so that. So I would say just an hour ago, I’m like, okay, this is not good.

Sebastian (00:00:57) – That was definitely it.

Erwin (00:00:58) – Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, just talking about the most recent every day seems to have something pretty, pretty significant, you know. but, but I told you, you know, just before we we. Yeah. Went on, I had to have a surgery. I had a bone drilled into my head so they could reattach the ligament in my head. And that was kind of one of those moments where you’re like, dang, how many, how many more things do I have to have happen to me? Ever been in that that kind of moment where I’m with the surgeon and I said, what? What are the chances of my ligament detaching? And he said, like, 1 in 1,000,000. You’re like, you’re that rare way. You’re like, that rare person has ever had that happen to you.

Erwin (00:01:36) – And I go, oh, I’m so glad to be unique. Right. And and he walked me through. He goes, there’s three different ways I can fix this. And the, the most intense thing is this. And that’s what they had to do. Nothing else worked. And so for six months I’ve been in and out of different surgeries. I’ve been, you know, through massive recovery. Yeah. Oh, it just it drives me. And I love I’m really physical, I love exercising, I love competing. Yeah. And each time it’s, you can’t lift anything for, you know, a couple of months or you can’t, in fact, a.

Sebastian (00:02:09) – Couple of months. Oh, the.

Erwin (00:02:10) – First time I had the surgery, the surgeon told me you can’t lift anything, but, you know, anything could can be broadly defined. So I’m home. It’s about to rain. I pick up a cushion in the front yard and my eye starts bleeding. I mean, oh my gosh.

Erwin (00:02:26) – Yeah, just blood starts coming out, you know. So I thought, oh I guess they really mean it that I can’t lift anything. So so I’ve been in in those kind of moments for the last few months. Yeah. And, and I remember at one point I was with the surgeon and they couldn’t fix my eye. It just kept dropping and dropping and dropping. And I remember she was worried because she thought, you know, I would sue her or something like that. And I told her, I said, and I knew she was going through something. I knew she was going through cancer and and I investigated and I asked her, hey, are you okay? And she told me she was going through. Some radiation and everything like that. And I said, hey, I want you to know something like, I’m never going to sue you. I’m not upset. I don’t blame you. You know, this is just something that happens. And you could tell she was kind of shocked.

Erwin (00:03:11) – And I said, I just want you to take care of yourself.

Sebastian (00:03:13) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:03:14) – And and she goes, yeah, but we hate that this happened to the nicest person we know. And I said, no, you should be happy. Happened to the nicest person you know, because I feel no anger and no bitterness. There’s no need to blame. And as I’m driving back, I mean, my eye looked like Quasimodo was just, like, dropping and dropping. And I had this thought. I thought, you know, I can’t control if I look hideous, but I can control if I’m kind and loving. And. And I just had this, like, overwhelmingly wonderful moment.

Sebastian (00:03:46) – Of, like, an opening. Yeah.

Erwin (00:03:47) – Going, this is a great life experiment for me.

Sebastian (00:03:51) – Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can only imagine especially too, because, you know, I mean, you used to be a fashion designer. You still am. You do. You still am beautiful. And you, and you know, the times that I’ve seen you always.

Sebastian (00:04:02) – You always look real good. You know, you look fly, you always looking good. So I think that that’s probably something that, you know, you care about your appearance and how you dress and.

Erwin (00:04:09) – Right, you know, there’s an irony in that is that, there’s a psychological assessment I use with a lot of top leaders, and it identifies image management, how much energy you spend on how other people perceive you.

Sebastian (00:04:23) – Oh, talk to me about this. This is interesting.

Erwin (00:04:25) – On a scale of 1 to 99, most of the highly successful people I know in their 90s, they really do care about how people see them, which drives them to a high level of of, fame. Celebrity. Yes. And, I’m an 11. And so out of a really. Yeah. So I’m so low on that scale and and it’s interesting because when I told what I was talking to the surgeon, I said, you’re you’re actually very fortunate because I know it’s hard to believe that I have almost no ego, like, I just don’t have that need when I wake up in the morning of worrying about how other people see me.

Erwin (00:05:01) – But you.

Sebastian (00:05:02) – Looking good. As for yourself then, or are you dressing a certain way or having a style or a vibe? What? How do you relate?

Erwin (00:05:09) – Because I, I see life as art and beauty.

Sebastian (00:05:11) – Got it. So that’s an art and beauty thing. It’s not about how others perceive you. That’s just you feel good looking a certain.

Erwin (00:05:16) – Way, like creating things that are interesting and beautiful. And yeah, I was playing, padel, you know, the sport, paddle tennis paddle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s.

Sebastian (00:05:24) – Fun.

Erwin (00:05:24) – It was on my, on my birthday, and I go for a ball and I hit the racquet, hits the ground, bounces back up, explodes in my face, and I’m laying on the ground. I’m playing with my family. Friends like, oh, stop faking it. Get up. You know, you know, you’re just kidding. When I got up, my face was just caked in blood. I’m gushing blood out of my face.

Erwin (00:05:42) – They have to take me to a surgeon. He can’t fix my face. Second surgeon. Too complicated. Can’t fix your face. This is in Mexico. I go to the third surgeon. They bring him in, and, And she says, okay, I could fix this. They had to put stitches, three different layers. And after I was done, I had to fly home. And I looked like Frankenstein. I mean, I was just stitched across my face and it’s so funny. My wife Kim said, you know, honey, if you get plastic surgery, no one would think badly of you. And I said, why? Why would I get plastic surgery? Because, well, you know, you it’s okay if you get plastic surgery to fix that giant scar across your face. And and I said, why would I want to get rid of the scar? The scar is a part of my story. Yeah. And and it was so funny because we have such different perspectives on image management, you know, and, you know, hers were.

Erwin (00:06:33) – It’s okay if you cover it up. And mine was. Are you kidding? I earned the scar.

Sebastian (00:06:36) – Yeah, that’s funny man. I want to take that test. Yeah. I mean, that’s super interesting. Or when you’re, your latest book, Mind Shift, I loved it. it was real. It was raw. It was authentic. It had a lot of things. And, And one of the first thing that stuck out to me was you talked about loss, loss of all kinds of things, right? you know, money, jobs, relationships and this and that. And you said that, The greatest thing you’ll ever lose are relationships, people, not money. So talk to me a little bit about that.

Erwin (00:07:12) – Yeah, it’s it’s interesting because I’ve, I’ve had an opportunity to make, you know, a amount of money and, and I’ve also had an opportunity to lose a great deal of money. I feel like I’ve lost more money than I made in some ways, because you don’t really feel making it, but you really do feel losing it.

Sebastian (00:07:26) – Right.

Erwin (00:07:26) – And and I think so many times we’re incredibly strategic and ambitious and determined and focused to not lose our money. But we don’t put the same level of intention in not losing our people. And, you know, having lived my life. This long. Now I look back and I realize, like the worst moments in my life were not because I didn’t have money or didn’t have a house or didn’t have things. It’s because my relationships were broken. And and when those bad times in life are matched with great people in your life, you actually remember them as great memories. And so I actually started mapping my life, going, wow, my great memories have nothing to do with my material success or physical success. They have all everything to do with the relationships in my life. Yeah. And and that’s what I’m really trying to highlight in the book because there’s, there’s two conflicting chapters, opening chapters. It’s it’s all about people. And then the third chapter is you can’t take everyone with you.

Erwin (00:08:26) – And in some sense, it’s a perfect assessment. There are some people, what they need to really focus on is it’s all about people, and they need to realize that people are the highest value in life. And if you sacrifice the people in your life for the things you want, you’re going to regret your life. But chapter three is for other people when it says you can’t take everyone with you. Some people are so much about people that they actually lose themself. It’s not that they love people as they need to be loved by people. It’s, it’s it goes beyond accepting others. It’s it’s being controlled by the need for acceptance. And you cannot elevate throughout your life if you’re not willing. To let life, in a sense, filter through who’s actually a part of your life. Because, you know, it depends. I mean, I’m Latino. I think you know, you are as well. And but, you know, in a lot of dominant Latin culture, family is more important than, like, your uniqueness or your success or your achievements.

Erwin (00:09:28) – In fact, you might even be pulled toward, I know you want to be this or a doctor or an artist or whatever, but family is more important. And and there’s this mindset that the people you have right now are the people you have all your life. But that’s not necessarily true. Right? And because I realized in my own life, this has been a challenging thing for me and Kim, my wife, is that to accept that we are seasonal, not just that you have people who are seasonal in your life, but you are seasonal and other people’s lives. You know, there are seasons where I’ve helped people and I’ve been there for them, and then their life shifted and they needed someone else or needed something else. And and for me to try to hold on to them would actually be a disservice to them. Yeah. I remember I was speaking one time talking about pursuing your, your, your, your dreams and, and following that unique narrative in your life. And one of our friends moved to Paris to become a chef.

Erwin (00:10:20) – And my wife’s like, why do you have to tell people to follow their dreams? We’re losing really good people. And I said, would you rather them be close to us and lose what they were created to become? Yeah, or go away from us, but discover who they were supposed to be, right?

Sebastian (00:10:35) – You also said that, I found really interesting. You said the people that say we’re here to stay for the long run tend to be the ones that aren’t there to stay for the long stay. And the ones that don’t ever say it are the ones that end up somehow staying.

Erwin (00:10:47) – Yeah, it’s absolutely true. It’s such an interesting thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We just we hear it all the time. No, we’re here for life. And I’m like, you don’t even know what life is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And because you’re not static, right? You’re not static. You’re dynamic. And I’ve been married for 40 years to the same person. Yeah. 40 years.

Sebastian (00:11:05) – Congratulations.

Erwin (00:11:05) – Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s nothing short of a miraculous. I was going to ask.

Sebastian (00:11:08) – You that later.

Erwin (00:11:09) – Yeah. I mean, for her to stay with me, it’s a miracle, right? You know, but we we’re not the same people. Who we who we were 40 years ago. Yeah, it’s so dramatically different. And so we’ve had to, in a sense, reinvent our relationship. Yeah, at least 40 times, if not 400 times. Is that the.

Sebastian (00:11:27) – Secret right there? Is that the secret reinvention, allowing yourself to reinvent and just sort of re accepting each other and new lights?

Erwin (00:11:33) – It is because if if you are committed to the person you married, you’re, you’re demanding that that person stay static all their life.

Sebastian (00:11:42) – And you’re not staying static.

Erwin (00:11:43) – And I’m not going to say static and she’s not gonna say static. So I have to recommit to her continuously. Yeah. Through her change, through her development, through her growth, and sometimes through her struggles.

Sebastian (00:11:54) – And is that something there is. Well, you know, I’m asking you this as as a single man. but there’s a school of thought that says, hey, you know, when you know, you know, when you meet somebody, you know, you know, you have to have that full body. Yes, no matter what. And then there’s the school of thought of, like, hey, look, like, honestly, no, there’s no such thing. There’s no romanticism around this full body. Yes. Like it’s just something that grows on you and you dedicate to the growth and this and that. Do you have a preference on one of those schools of thought?

Erwin (00:12:22) – I don’t think it’s about the other person at all. And, you know, when I met Kim, my my wife was an orphan, okay? She was abandoned.

Sebastian (00:12:32) – Were you, by the way, when you met 25.

Erwin (00:12:33) – When we got married? 22 when we met. Okay. And I met this young woman getting her master’s degree.

Erwin (00:12:39) – She was an orphan, lived in a foster home from the age of 8 to 18. Wow. All of her clothes had come from the Salvation Army. She had nine brothers and sisters who became drug addicts, drug dealers, homeless criminals. She started walking herself, to a church and then making sure she finished school, got a scholarship to college. All this on her own, having left starving, starved, eating nothing but ketchup and turnips for three weeks in a government project. Wow. And when I met her and I. As I got to know her, I thought to myself, it would be a real privilege to love this person.

Sebastian (00:13:14) – wow. It would be a real privilege to love this person.

Erwin (00:13:17) – Yeah, it wasn’t about, oh, I feel like this person loves me or or what she can bring to me. I can genuinely say I didn’t get married going, this person fulfills me, or this person is right is what I’m searching for or what I need. It was what.

Sebastian (00:13:30) – Most people tend to do.

Erwin (00:13:32) – Yeah. So marriage becomes our most selfish act. And it really was, this sense of privilege of, wow, this person has never heard I love you in her whole life. Wow. And never known someone who was devoted to them. And and I get if I choose this, I get the privilege of being that person. And so I just I genuinely chose Kim because I wanted the privilege of loving her.

Sebastian (00:14:00) – I love that that’s beautiful.

Erwin (00:14:01) – And then what she could bring to me is what she could bring to me.

Sebastian (00:14:05) – That’s beautiful. Yeah. That’s amazing. or when you talk about how how many years it’s taken for like, how many years of experience in your life, it’s taken for you to essentially gain your respect and and gain an audience and things like that. And honestly, I feel like I’ve been I’ve been working at it for quite a long time myself. But nowadays things have changed, you know? you know, you have kids that gain massive audiences before they even hit puberty. Yeah.

Sebastian (00:14:32) – And, you know, there’s a school that now there’s a lot of like, sort of a build your audience and then sort of like, you know, kind of create yourself around that, build your run around, build your brand around that. And it’s sort of like a little bit of a fake until you make it type situation. Right? and you said something in mind, shift that I absolutely loved, you said specifically is are you capturing your audience or is your audience capture you? I love that quote from the book. So how do we keep our audiences from capturing us in a world full of algorithms and trends?

Erwin (00:15:03) – It’s interesting. When I was, the first time I was working on design, I was working a lot with people in Europe and in the Middle East, Israel. And over and over again they would say to me, oh, you’re not an American designer. And I never knew what it meant, but I would just nod my head and say, yes, you know, you know, you’re a European designer.

Erwin (00:15:21) – And finally, after a few years of that, I finally asked when I had the courage to ask one of them, what do you what does that mean? Yeah. What do you mean by that? And he goes, oh, American designers designed based on what can sell, and Europeans designers based on their lifestyle and expression of who they are. And and I realize, oh, everything I designed is an expression of who I am. In fact, a huge part of the conversations are, will that sell to anyone? And I’m like, it’ll sell to me. And I this is truly authentic to the way I live and the way I see, the way I feel things, the way I want to express myself. And I think it’s true with developing an audience, if you allow. In audience to tell you who you need to be. For your audience to grow. Your audience will grow, but you will not. And you will actually lose yourself in the process, right? But if you are your authentic self and you allow the audience to grow based on their actual knowledge of you, that they they accept you for who you are.

Erwin (00:16:21) – They they love the story you’re telling, the life you’re living, the, you know, the values you’re representing, whatever it may be. Then that audience is with you. And there’s something really, really powerful in that. And I just made the decision years and years and years ago that. I don’t want to be owned by the audience. Right? You know, and. Yeah. And you don’t need an audience to be great. You don’t need an audience to do something extraordinary. You don’t need an audience to do something beautiful. And, and and you have to trust that, if you create something that’s true to you, that the right people will be drawn to it and we’ll find it.

Sebastian (00:16:57) – And then you say, don’t pay the price of greatness for the praise of the people.

Erwin (00:17:02) – No, don’t pay the price for fame. Don’t pay the.

Sebastian (00:17:04) – Price for fame. Yeah. And greatness is who you really are. Yes.

Erwin (00:17:08) – Because there’s a difference between fame and greatness. Yes and no.

Erwin (00:17:11) – I think that’s a that’s the right distinction. Sub is that, if you pursue fame, you’re going to end up empty. Yeah. But. And you. You might end up great, but very unlikely. Okay, but if you pursue greatness, you might never be famous. But you might become famous. But you will be great whether anyone knows you or not.

Sebastian (00:17:33) – And. And to follow that up, you say something beautiful, which is, if you keep showing up for yourself, people will show up for you. What happens when you feel like you just keep showing up for yourself, and you keep showing up for yourself, and nobody’s showing up for you.

Erwin (00:17:50) – It doesn’t matter to you because you’re when you’re actually showing up for yourself, you’re not waiting for them to show up. And when people say wait a minute, wait a minute, I keep showing up for myself, but they’re never showing up. And you go well then you’re not showing up for yourself. you’re actually showing up for them.

Sebastian (00:18:05) – So ultimately it doesn’t matter. But you’re saying that it will happen if you are truly showing up for yourself. And that is more of how you define greatness as well. Yes, yes, it’s.

Erwin (00:18:14) – Because people desperately want authentic expressions of being human.

Sebastian (00:18:18) – Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Authentic expression. Authenticity is something that I’ve, in the past myself that I’ve sort of not struggled with. Just thought a lot about because what I struggled with was the fact that I was, in fact, so many different things, and that I wasn’t just one type of person. I wasn’t just like, oh, I’m the the guy who cares a lot about building business. or I’m the highly spiritual friend that always wants to talk about, you know, God, the universe, aliens, whatever. and also the the homie who can have a good time over a beer with a friend and just talk about, you know, football the whole time. Right. So I had to sort of accept all of these, like, wait, it’s okay for me to be all these things together, and that’s really what I really am.

Sebastian (00:19:04) – And that’s still authentic, even though it’s a bunch of different things. That’s right. You know? Yeah.

Erwin (00:19:08) – Everybody wants us to be one thing, right? We’re a universe. Yeah, right. And the more comfortable you are with the universe of who you are, I think the more you enjoy life. And actually, the more you connect to a variety of people. And. Right, because there’s there’s always like one thing that people want you to be all the time for them. And that’s the danger with an audience is an audience. When they like you doing this, they’ll hate you. When you change and do something else, you go, no, this has always been who I am. But you.

Sebastian (00:19:36) – See it. You’ve always seen it happen traditionally with like, rock n roll bands or something, right? All of a sudden they drop a new album and it’s different than the previous album and they hate you.

Erwin (00:19:44) – Yeah. That’s right.

Sebastian (00:19:45) – Right. I’m sure you’ve experienced a lot of that, you know, being a speaker and over the time is sort of being in front of a lot of people, putting yourself out there, I’m sure people have been like, oh, everyone’s changed.

Sebastian (00:19:54) – Oh, even.

Erwin (00:19:54) – With books, when, if, if a book feels very different than the last book, and my books tend to always feel different. Okay, people, wait a minute. What’s going on? What’s going on here? Oh.

Sebastian (00:20:03) – That’s so funny. Yeah.

Erwin (00:20:04) – No, that’s why you can’t write for, you know, the, the the pleasure of of being loved. you know, I mean, I obviously write and I want millions of people to read the book. So millions of people are impacted by the book.

Sebastian (00:20:20) – And that’s okay. Right. To want to have because you’re kind of going back to the whole thing, right? Yeah. Don’t do it for the audience. Right. You’re showing up for yourself, but you still want to have. Yeah, but.

Erwin (00:20:28) – You’re it isn’t an audience because they’re sitting in the intimacy of their own home reading a book. It’s a one on one conversation, okay? And you don’t even get to experience viscerally that experience. Interesting. So you’re actually giving something away that you never get to experience.

Erwin (00:20:43) – So it’s a really beautiful thing. If I only want to impact one person, I would just have lunch with you. Yeah, right. You know, I don’t write books going. I don’t believe that when people say, oh, if it just reaches one person, I’m going, then don’t write a book. That’s a that’s a terrible strategy, okay? Reaching one person, getting eating a meal is a better strategy, for sure. You know, I write a book so that I can be in a conversation with a million different people when I can’t be in the room.

Sebastian (00:21:06) – Oh, I love that. That’s amazing. you know, thinking back into the whole, like, sort of capturing an audience and sort of big audiences and followers and thinking about social media, think about, you know, if Jesus would have had Instagram, you know, he would have had like 12 followers, right?

Erwin (00:21:23) – And a lot of haters.

Sebastian (00:21:24) – A lot of haters and 12 followers. Yeah. And he still kept on preaching, baby.

Sebastian (00:21:30) – Yeah. So, you know what? You know, outside of sort of a religion or religious structure, what is Jesus to you?

Erwin (00:21:37) – You know, I don’t even think about Jesus in a religious structure, so I only think about him outside of religious structure.

Sebastian (00:21:42) – So easy.

Erwin (00:21:43) – Yeah, yeah, I grew up incredibly irreligious. Okay. Not anti-religious. Okay. Just irreligious. You know, I never heard anybody say anything negative about religion. I just never heard anybody talk about it, you know? And my mom was always a very deeply spiritual person. She, She brought a Buddha home. It was a Buddhist for a while. She, studied under a rabbi and and became Jewish. And, you know, she was born to Catholicism, but I don’t think it’s stuck very well as, as a Catholic, you know, and and so she would just weave in and out of different religious beliefs because she was searching and trying to find if there’s meaning in life. She was really she’s a really brilliant person.

Sebastian (00:22:20) – Amazing exposure. Yeah. Very unique.

Erwin (00:22:22) – Yeah. So I never grew up going, you’re not allowed to explore religions, you know. And then my only access to religion was mythology. So by the time I was in sixth grade, I read every mythology book, I think, in the library. And because I thought mythology is where the search for God to and, because you know what you believe is truth and everything else is mythology, right? And so I read all these mythologies, and I was trying to find, common places for the human story to, to find out who I was. So I didn’t really consider Jesus, until I was studying philosophy in college. And, and I remember spending one day on the Old Testament and going, this can’t be real. And so I laughed, I laughed it off and discounted it. Yeah. So I was probably the last person that I would ever guess to become, quote, a follower of Jesus. Interesting. And, I became a Socratic.

Erwin (00:23:17) – I became a follower of Socrates and, read, you know, all of like Plato’s work and Aristotle and, and and it was really influenced through stoicism and a lot of those different, Greek philosophies. And. And I think when Socrates gave his life up at, you know, in the 70s for his principles, it kind of prepared me for the story of Jesus, to be honest with you. And. And then I hear the story of Jesus and I’m like, well, it’s a beautiful story, but I’m not sure, you know, if it’s a real story, you know? And so I didn’t have anything negative against it, I just didn’t. I didn’t know how you could rationally believe that. That Jesus was God, you know? And so so I wasn’t, I wasn’t ready for it at first. and what really happened to me was I was desperately searching for meaning in life and trying to make sense of life, and I was that’s why I was reading all these philosophers and reading all these mythologies, and, and and I just knew something was missing inside of me.

Erwin (00:24:18) – And, you know, it’s different for different people, but I, I was running from a sense of insignificance. I just couldn’t bear the fact that I would live and die in my life would have no meaning. And and even when I was probably 7 or 8 years old, I started reading, like, Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein and, you know, Andre Norton and I and and all these different, you know, physicists who created science fiction going, is there any meaning to life? And, And so with Jesus it was, oh, this is different than every other religion. Every religion tells me. What I need to do to get to God. And they all had different strategies to get to enlightenment, to get to Nirvana, whatever. but Jesus is the opposite. He doesn’t tell you what you need to do to get to God. He tells you what God did to get to you. And I thought, you know, if there is a God and he’s all powerful. And there’s a break between our relationship.

Erwin (00:25:19) – The only one who could actually cover the distance would be him. It couldn’t be me. And in fact, if and if God is love, he would be the. The progenitor of all things, he would be the proactive force trying to get to me. So every religion that says God’s up there on some mountain or whatever it is, and you need to work to get to him. I discount immediately. I go, yeah, if that’s who God is, then we’re hopeless because he’s nefarious, narcissistic, and indifferent to us. and the difference for me with Jesus is that Jesus is God’s proactive love. And his messaging is you don’t have to do anything to get to me. I did everything to get to you. Well, and and then if and I believe this, that the unifying principle of the universe is love. Yeah. And if if the unifying principle of the universe is love, then the ultimate expression of that love is sacrifice. And that’s how the cross makes sense to me, that God’s ultimate act of declaration of love would be his sacrifice.

Erwin (00:26:25) – And and so I see the story of Jesus as a love story.

Sebastian (00:26:30) – That’s beautiful. Yeah. Do we do you feel like we all have it in us to, to attempt to have a, a level of Christ like, Christ like consciousness? Do we need to be great? Do we have. Do we need to do that?

Erwin (00:26:46) – I think we all have the image of God in us, all of us. And and it’s a part of what drives our ideals. I mean, think about human ideals. Except where do we get them? Because, you know, some people say, well, I can’t believe in God because you can’t prove God. And I understand that, but.

Sebastian (00:27:04) – How do you prove peace?

Erwin (00:27:07) – Because human history has never known peace. Like, why do we imagine a world without poverty? Because we’ve always known poverty. Why do we imagine things like justice? Because all we’ve known through history is injustice. We have never had a human story that expresses our ideals. See? Have you ever heard of the phenomenon of phantom pain? Yeah.

Erwin (00:27:28) – You know, if you lose an arm and years later, you still feel that arms or you feel the pain of that arm. But for phantom pain to happen, you have to lose something you once had. I think human ideals are the phantom pain of the soul.

Sebastian (00:27:43) – Human ideals are the phantom pain of the.

Erwin (00:27:45) – Soul, the reason we can imagine love and peace and justice and mercy and compassion is because our souls have a latent memory of who we really are.

Sebastian (00:27:56) – Yeah. And then we we also we experience it in moments. Yes. That’s right. And in places. Yeah. Right.

Erwin (00:28:02) – And we taste it and we know and. But isn’t it odd that the exception is what we know should be the rule? Interesting and that to me. So we may ask me, who is Jesus? Jesus is the one who makes us human again.

Sebastian (00:28:17) – That’s beautiful. I love that. I love that. Or when? So changing the subject a little bit towards, towards money. money is money is is very important.

Sebastian (00:28:29) – It can affect a lot of our lives. It can, you know, really affect our health or well-being or living situation. and, you know, you’ve had a certain level of success yourself. And how do you see the connection between money and God and spirituality? Yeah, that’s a really.

Erwin (00:28:49) – Tricky space for me. Yeah. ironically, it’s the opposite for me. I could have made. Way more money if I didn’t identify myself so closely to Jesus. Really? The church? because I made sure I didn’t create as much wealth so that people wouldn’t question my sincerity.

Sebastian (00:29:10) – But do you think that was necessary? No.

Erwin (00:29:13) – Okay. But I think I thought it was necessary.

Sebastian (00:29:14) – Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Erwin (00:29:16) – You know, I was trying to be sincere. Yeah. I didn’t have any backup plan. I didn’t know how to do this. Yeah, I knew that, I had this ability to create community. That’s how I started Mosaic in Los Angeles, and I wanted to create a space for people to be able to belong and to be loved, to be accepted.

Erwin (00:29:33) – And, and and I and I was pretty much a monastic when I was in my 20s. I mean, everything I owned, I had in a paper bag. I mean, when I married my wife, we slept on the floor because I wouldn’t buy a bed because I said it was a luxury. So I was a very monastic kind of person, you know, I was extremist and, you know, anti materialist, the whole thing.

Sebastian (00:29:53) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:29:54) – And it took me some growing up in maturity to go. you’re reacting to people, not the principles.

Sebastian (00:30:03) – And, Right.

Erwin (00:30:04) – You know, because we’re all a product of who we love, who we hate, who we admire, who we don’t admire, you know, and, and so I think I was reacting in some ways, but. As I as I grew in my own faith because I spent ten years working with the poor. And I spent so much of those ten years trying to get people who had money. To invest or money.

Erwin (00:30:25) – People who didn’t have money. Yeah. And then one day, it occurred to me I could cut out the middleman by using the gifts I actually had. Make money and then be generous.

Sebastian (00:30:35) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:30:36) – And that was a huge part of the shift for me, was when I finally realized I have a moral responsibility to. Sorry that I have a moral responsibility to create as much as I’m capable of creating, so that I can do the most good possible in the world. And that was a shift for me.

Sebastian (00:30:55) – Now, you were generous before though.

Erwin (00:30:58) – I was, I was generous when I was four.

Sebastian (00:31:00) – Right. In fact you say that, you know, you, when you and your wife met or when you were first getting together and you’re, you’re making, like, less than 20 grand a year, which is literally like poverty. But you didn’t feel poor. You felt rich even in that moment. How do you how do you have that mentality, man? How can you feel rich even though you were legitimately below the poverty line? Yeah, I think.

Erwin (00:31:23) – For about ten years my average income was around 12 to 13,000 a year.

Sebastian (00:31:27) – Wow. I mean, even if we adjust it or whatever, right? Still, we’re talking pretty poor. Yeah. But yeah.

Erwin (00:31:33) – But I was I was able to walk in the rooms and help people with wealth, see how they can make the world better. Yeah. And I and I had an ability to move millions of dollars. Not through me, but around me. And I didn’t care if they came, if it came to me or through me. I just cared if I was able to leverage that wealth and that power and that influence to do good in the world. Yeah. And so I, you know, I mean, if you’re moving millions and millions and millions of dollars by helping people care about people.

Sebastian (00:32:06) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:32:06) – How do you consider yourself poor?

Sebastian (00:32:09) – Absolutely.

Erwin (00:32:09) – And and so I never considered poverty or wealth based on what I had.

Sebastian (00:32:14) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:32:14) – But what I was able to accomplish.

Sebastian (00:32:16) – Love it. Love it.

Sebastian (00:32:17) – Yeah. Or when you’ve also sat in and been invited to a lot of mastermind groups were part of the requirement to be in that mastermind is you got to have a net worth of $100 million or more and things like that. You’ve been a lot. You’ve been around that energy of multi-millionaire type energy. What do you think is the the thing that these, these people have the most in common?

Erwin (00:32:40) – Well, that’s an interesting question. Aaron, my son and I were talking about this yesterday.

Sebastian (00:32:45) – your son, by the way. He’s 35. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah.

Erwin (00:32:47) – And on our Mind Shift podcast. And I said, look, most people that I know that are highly successful are running from something and running to something, okay. And and when they’re, when they feel immature, it’s because running from something is more powerful than running to something. So they’re running from poverty, okay? They’re running from insignificance. They’re, you know, they’re running from their family that were underachievers or whatever it may be, you know, and and when you listen to people who have accomplished a lot from nothing, they’re running from something.

Sebastian (00:33:16) – Definitely. Yeah.

Erwin (00:33:17) – And, and but there’s a shift eventually where they’re running to something. Okay. And they actually see a vision for their life or what they want to create or what they want to accomplish. And sometimes it’s very superficial. They’re running to, well, not superficial, like I know one person he was running to buying his mom a house. Like I’m going to I’m going to have so much wealth that my mom’s never going to struggle again. Yeah, I’m going to have so much wealth that I’m, you know there’s always going to be food in the table. Right. But but it can really play itself out as I’m going to prove to them I’m something. So what I’m running to is owning the yacht and owning the plane and having five mansions. And, you know, well.

Sebastian (00:33:54) – That was a big shift, though, right? Because actually, when you first started telling that sort of story, it felt very wholesome to me. It was like, I’m going to save my family.

Sebastian (00:34:03) – Yes. And I know a lot of people weren’t home. Right, right, right. Yeah. To the house and the yacht, which is still okay to like, hey, if you can have a yacht, it’s a different drive. Yeah, okay.

Erwin (00:34:11) – But it’s but it’s actually more ego driven there, right? Of course it really isn’t. The yacht and the plane in the house and the girls.

Sebastian (00:34:17) – It’s the status.

Erwin (00:34:18) – Or it’s the status approval. It’s what other people.

Sebastian (00:34:21) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:34:22) – Think about me and say about me. And so you’re actually being driven by high ego need, right. Which leaves you empty later because, there’s always someone more than you. Yeah, there’s always someone more successful than you. Always. And so the moment you’re living for comparison, you’re you’re in a deficit.

Sebastian (00:34:39) – Absolutely. Yeah. So going back to that, so the most common thing that you feel like you see in those groups is that either they’re running away from something or they’re running towards something.

Erwin (00:34:49) – It’s both.

Erwin (00:34:49) – They’re running from something and running to something.

Sebastian (00:34:51) – And towards something. Is there a healthy, is there some something in there that’s like a healthy, adjective or something that you see that most people that are highly successful have?

Erwin (00:35:02) – Yes. You’re running from the lesser expression of who you are to the highest expression of who you are.

Sebastian (00:35:08) – That’s where you see it being healthy.

Erwin (00:35:09) – Yes. So I’m running from the easiest version of Erwin.

Sebastian (00:35:14) – Okay.

Erwin (00:35:15) – To the highest version of Erwin. And no one else can measure that, right? Right. It’s not in comparison to anyone else. I know what I’m leaving on the table because of my lack of discipline, or my lack of passion, or my lack of courage, or my lack of love. And so I want to run from the lowest version of me. Yeah, toward the highest version of me.

Sebastian (00:35:40) – That’s beautiful. I think about that a lot myself. And, I’ll be honest, though, I, you know, I call myself a recovering perfectionist. And, there’s a certain thing, you know, the theme of the not enoughness type thing is something that I, you know, I think most of us at some point, you know, deal with, but there’s not enough.

Sebastian (00:36:00) – That’s where I’m not enough. And then there’s not enough ness of what I’m doing is not enough. I’m more on this side of like, what I’m doing or what I’m achieving is not enough. the impact that I want to bring to the world, the impact is not enough. It’s not reaching enough people as I wanted, whatever that is. Right? So sometimes I struggle to find that healthy drive of what I’m doing is not enough. Because what I want to achieve is beautiful and great and has a greater purpose versus also like, not, you know, hitting myself with the whip on the back.

Erwin (00:36:30) – Yeah. Yeah. You. You have to be careful not to be striving for acceptance, but working from acceptance. And when you feel like it’s not enough, it’s not enough. It’s not enough. I just can’t do enough. You have to realize, all right? Your identity is and what you’re doing not and who you’re becoming. You have to shift your identity to who you’re becoming. And that way, because, you know, some days I don’t accomplish a whole lot.

Erwin (00:36:56) – Yeah. You know, I just be really straight up and I’m like, yeah, I didn’t get a lot done today. Yeah. But I’m still incredibly, fulfilled with the person I’m becoming. Yeah.

Sebastian (00:37:07) – Okay.

Erwin (00:37:07) – And and I think that’s, that’s where your identity is safer in a sense. The reason a lot of people have identity crisis is because their identities and their wealth or success or their power or their fame and all those things are really fragile. Those are great outcomes, but they’re terrible intentions.

Sebastian (00:37:26) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:37:26) – And so if your intention is on success or wealth or power or fame, you’re always vulnerable and you’re always going to be fragile, right? Right. But if your intention is focused on who you’re becoming, no one can touch that. And your environment can’t touch that. Yeah. Because even in the harshest, most difficult situations, you’re still in control of who you’re becoming.

Sebastian (00:37:45) – Now, who you’re becoming. In theory, you never, you know, actualize who you become. So who do you become? You become who you become, literally the day, the second that you die, that’s who you kind of finally fully realized who you become.

Sebastian (00:37:58) – Correct. So it’s almost like this. It makes me think about this. I think it was in A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson. And it she talks about capacity versus potential and talks about sort of potential being this sort of like a really tough thing to always deal with. Like you’re never living up to your full potential because you full potential, you’re going to actualize the day you die. So what is my maximum capacity today? Am I, you know, right that I can become. And so it kind of allows it gives you a little bit of peace. So it kind of reminded me of that concept. So yeah, I.

Erwin (00:38:30) – Used to think that it was a tragedy if you died with potential.

Sebastian (00:38:35) – Right? Like you want to leave all the potential on the table. You’ve actualized it.

Erwin (00:38:38) – But but the reality is that potential is exponential. So every time you actualize potential, it increases. So you’ll you’ll never actualize your potential because it keeps growing as you keep growing.

Sebastian (00:38:53) – You got to be okay with that, right? I’ve even thinking about you’ll never actually have some potential.

Erwin (00:38:57) – I want to die with so much potential. People wished I’d lived another 50 years. Oh, man.

Sebastian (00:39:02) – That’s funny, because, you know, we grow up with that sort of mentality. Whether, you know, I played a lot of sports growing up and, you know, you play with that. It’s like, oh, that that kid’s not playing up to his potential. Yeah, she’s not playing up to her potential. So that’s a bad thing right? It’s seen as like a bad thing. You’re not you’re not actualizing your potential. You’re saying, hey, that’s basically impossible. The more you grow, the more potential you have.

Erwin (00:39:23) – Yeah. I think what we’re actually saying is that that person isn’t living up to their present potential or capacity. They’re, you know, they’ve chosen a lower ceiling based on the choices they’ve made.

Sebastian (00:39:32) – Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s I, I love the conversation I this stuff that I, that it’s so interesting to me. you know, you say that success carries more weight than failure.

Sebastian (00:39:44) – And what I’m going to challenge on that is it’s actually something that you said earlier and even what a lot of professional athletes, will say the opposite, right. You’ll have somebody who’s been in the arena, who’s been in the Super Bowl in the championship game. They say losing the Super Bowl hurt way more than winning. Feels good, right? Which is technically the opposite of saying that success weighs more than failure. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah.

Erwin (00:40:13) – In fact, I think he just proved my point without realizing.

Sebastian (00:40:16) – Okay.

Erwin (00:40:18) – When you lose a Super.

Sebastian (00:40:20) – Bowl, yeah.

Erwin (00:40:21) – You feel the pain. Yeah. The likelihood that you will repeat that same level of effort the next year is almost minimal. if you feel that pain, in fact, when the Miami Dolphins, I think it’s 1971, 72, they lost the Super Bowl. Don Shula, at the end of the game said, I want you to feel I want you remember what you’re feeling right now. The next year they went undefeated, only undefeated professional football team ever 17 and zero when Super Bowl.

Erwin (00:40:50) – Because they felt the weight of that pain. Yeah. It’s harder to repeat after you win. Right. Because you don’t live up to the weight of the success.

Sebastian (00:41:03) – okay.

Erwin (00:41:04) – And which is why. Like, Tom Brady is an anomaly to win, you know, whatever. Seven, seven Super Bowls. Yeah. Because most people like Shaq will just admit like he won one one championship. And he was happy. Yeah. It was like, you know he didn’t have to drive to anymore. Interesting. And that’s so when I say the weight of success is what I mean by that is the weight of success has a higher likelihood to keep you from achieving at your highest level than the way to failure. Because if you pay attention, failure wakes you up. But success can put you to sleep. Yeah, absolutely. And and it’s interesting because I like basketball. So I love the NBA.

Sebastian (00:41:43) – Yeah man the playoffs have been great.

Erwin (00:41:45) – I know it’s been amazing. So so good. But there’s almost not a single player that hasn’t had a Jordan game.

Erwin (00:41:52) – You know I mean even like the average players in the NBA have had a Jordan game like that one game where they just go off and they shoot, you know 65% and.

Sebastian (00:42:00) – Jokic had 40.

Erwin (00:42:01) – Points last night. Yeah but not incredible. Yeah. But they but they can’t repeat it yeah yeah yeah because that’s that’s where you can see oh they have the talent. They have the potential, but greatness is sustained. Excellence. And that’s harder. Yeah, because success is weightier. And which is why a lot of times people, when they succeed, actually stop taking risks because they’re so afraid to not achieve the same level of success. So, you know, I’m not saying that success hurts more than failure. Failure hurts way more. What I’m saying is that the the weight of success, let’s say the, When you make 50,000 a year. You may have an addictive personality, but you can’t afford it. And then all of a sudden, you’re making 50 million. Yeah, and you can afford every addiction.

Erwin (00:43:00) – Yeah. The weight of success is going to crush you because you can’t carry that level of success. Yeah. And I mean, frankly, it’s why a lot of marriages end. The weight of when you’re making $50,000 a year together. You actually need each other economically. But I see so many guys when they get to 100 million. Instantly their wives leave them.

Sebastian (00:43:23) – Really.

Erwin (00:43:24) – And it’s not interesting. It’s not the husband who chooses to leave. They chose to live beneath their relationship up to the 100 million. The wife tolerated it and then left. Almost always, the guy wants to save the marriage afterwards. And it’s because the weight of success is so strong that you will now make. You are now free to make your worst decisions interesting. And so you have to decide who you’re going to be before you have that kind of success.

Sebastian (00:43:53) – I was going to ask you, how do you. Because someone can hear that and be very discouraged from success. Right. And be very sort of like.

Erwin (00:44:02) – Why you build those principles at the beginning, you know, and I remember I spoke at this event a few years ago before the pandemic and, It was very odd.

Erwin (00:44:10) – It was like this big event and they had me do a podcast afterwards and they asked me a strange question. They said, you know, speaking at this event is like a pinnacle experience. And, you know, how, how do you think you’ll handle the, the weight of success, And I thought, wow, you have a really high view of your event, right, Tim? I said, well, I thought I was successful before I came here, before you let me know I wasn’t. And, and, you know, I just try to live my life even when I was making $12,000 a year and as if I was living my optimal life and I had all the same, principles engaged then, you know, so I was generous when I made nothing. Yeah. Because you don’t become generous when you’re rich, right?

Sebastian (00:44:52) – That’s what. That’s what you say. Success doesn’t really change you. It simply exposes who you really are. That’s right.

Erwin (00:44:56) – Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Erwin (00:44:57) – That’s why when people say ultimate power corrupts ultimate, ultimate power corrupts ultimately or whatever it is, absolute power corrupts absolutely. That’s what it is. No it doesn’t. Yeah. Absolute power reveals.

Sebastian (00:45:09) – Absolutely reveals. Absolutely.

Erwin (00:45:11) – Yeah. Yeah. It doesn’t corrupt. Yeah. And it reveals you now get to be who you are. Yeah.

Sebastian (00:45:19) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:45:20) – So decide are you going to be before you have that power.

Sebastian (00:45:22) – Absolutely. Yeah. So or when you’ve had a great amount of success and, and a certain level of fame too. And how do you personally stay grounded? Do you even have to do something to stay grounded? Or as you said, you already knew who you were. So it’s not really you don’t even have to think about it.

Erwin (00:45:37) – I think some of it is paying attention to the closest people in my life. my son Aaron is 35. My daughter Mariah is 32. They both live within five minutes or so of me. They choose to be two of my closest friends. Oh, I love that.

Sebastian (00:45:51) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:45:51) – That’s beautiful. I’ve been married to Kim for 40 years, so these people know me and what they say matters to me. Yeah. You know, and and they they they’re a force of nature. They have no problem telling me what they think and. Yeah, and or what they see. And so I don’t let fans tell me how great I am. And I don’t want them that I’m telling me how horrible I am. Yeah. Let the people who are really close to me tell me, hey, you got an issue. Yeah. And that’s when I deal with it, okay? You know, and so it’s really the the people in your inner circle. Yeah. That keep you grounded in life.

Sebastian (00:46:23) – I love that, I love that, and you lead a large faith community which is Mosaic in Los Angeles. How many people are a part of that?

Erwin (00:46:29) – We don’t really count.

Sebastian (00:46:31) – Okay. A lot, a lot of you a lot. And what do you what would you say is like the average age of a lot of the people that the average.

Erwin (00:46:38) – Age of mosaic is probably 26. Very young.

Sebastian (00:46:40) – That’s that’s incredible. Yeah. It’s a very young congrats with everything you’re doing there. It’s beautiful. It’s really beautiful. And you preach a lot around creativity. how does God want us to be creative humans?

Erwin (00:46:52) – Well, I mean, one of our basic, Foundational beliefs that mosaic is that every human being is created in the image of God, and that every human being is created to create that. What makes humans distinct from every other species is that we actually have creative capacity, that we can imagine the future and create it, that we can materialize the invisible. And so a huge part of why I started mosaic was I felt like oftentimes, especially Christian churches, seemed to almost be at war with creativity. And, and I thought, how could spirituality and creativity be in opposition with each other and what.

Sebastian (00:47:28) – Sense why they.

Erwin (00:47:30) – Shouldn’t be. You know, how would you how.

Sebastian (00:47:32) – Are you seeing it that it was at war with.

Erwin (00:47:33) – Creativity because churches seemed to hold on to tradition so much? It’s like, you know, the buildings are 1500 years old, the songs are 500 years old.

Erwin (00:47:42) – The, you know, the clothes is 50 years old, you know. Yeah. Everything seems to be focused on the past. It’s about preserving the past rather than creating the future. And really, if God is at the epicenter of a community, you should be creating the future. You should be inspiring visions and dreams and, you know, creative imagination and uniqueness and talent and, and and helping people discover that. So I yeah, I just love a place that believes every human being has something intrinsically beautiful inside of them. That’s supposed to be a gift to the world. And and so, you know, and I when I started mosaic, the metaphor I used was this mosaic of broken and fragmented pieces, because it’s an art form created by broken pieces, especially when light strikes through it. And I wanted to say, look, we’re just broken. They’re fragmented people brought together in this extraordinary art form that makes us more beautiful, especially when the light strikes through us.

Sebastian (00:48:38) – I love that.

Erwin (00:48:39) – And and that’s been like the the basic narrative of mosaic and.

Erwin (00:48:44) – You know, and so it isn’t perfect. We’re all imperfect people. Yeah. There’s no one who has it all together. We’re all working this thing out and growing together and struggling together, and, And I just think it’s a beautiful thing.

Sebastian (00:48:56) – It is truly a beautiful thing. Truly beautiful thing. Or when is there, something that, you’ve never shared before that you’d like to share or something that, that I didn’t ask you, that you were like, oh, that’d be great if someone asked me this and no one asks me this whenever I get interviewed or whenever I’m talking to someone.

Erwin (00:49:13) – Oh. it’s an interesting question. I think maybe right now when I’m looking at culturally, and, you know, some of my background, I think, is that I was a very, a very naturally an anarchist. I didn’t trust institutions, I didn’t trust governments, I didn’t trust businesses, I didn’t trust any any organized system, including religion or whatever it may be. And one of the things that I think I’ve learned over my lifetime is that.

Erwin (00:49:46) – You find in the world that who you are and. And so if you have any desire to change the world, you have to change yourself. Yeah. You know, because I think that. You know, early on I was like, I want to change the world. I want to make the world better. I still do, yeah. You know. Yeah. but the moment you change, you believe other people can change. Yeah. The moment you become trustworthy, you believe other people are trustworthy. The moment you believe that, the moment you become compassionate, you believe in a world full of compassion. Yeah. And and so I just think the one thing that maybe comes to my mind is just that, I don’t fight the the battle of right and wrong. And I fight the battle. of of like for beauty and wonder. To help us become the most beautiful expression of our own humanity. And, And that’s why, for me, Jesus is so central and essential to me. you know, I don’t believe in Jesus because it’s the belief system I grew up with.

Erwin (00:50:56) – Right? And I don’t follow Jesus because I think you know I’m right and someone else is wrong. I think I was wrong, and I found love and and in that love, I can be wrong all the time.

Sebastian (00:51:07) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:51:08) – And so even at mosaic, I tell people, look, I’m wrong all the time. You know, I’m still trying to figure everything out. The main thing in life is to realize that what connects us together is when we love each other. What drives us is when we all help each other find hope in life. And this thing called faith isn’t a noun, it’s a verb. It’s an engagement of life with courage and bravery, with honesty and truth. And I think when we all live in those, the world gets better.

Sebastian (00:51:40) – I love that, that’s beautiful. Erwin, I’ll leave you with this question. What are two traits that are conscious leader must embody today in this world in 2024?

Erwin (00:51:50) – Empathy. Well, I would say empathy and presence.

Sebastian (00:51:56) – Empathy and presence.

Sebastian (00:51:58) – Yeah.

Erwin (00:51:58) – You you need to me, it’s like it’s. It’s connecting deeply with other people where they are and seeing the world through their eyes and from the vantage point of their own soul, and then giving people the gift of your presence by not just showing up, but being fully present and not being distracted, not being in 50 other places and not being transactional, but just simply being present and giving people the gift of who you are.

Sebastian (00:52:27) – I’ve done a lot of these podcasts. Presence is not a quality that I’ve heard before, and it’s a beautiful one. It’s a great one, and I think it’s one that would probably gotten away from the most because of technology and all of these things that are pulling us in a million directions. So presence is it’s a beautiful one. So yeah. Or when keep doing what you do, you’re truly a conscious leader. Millions of people around the world are highly inspired by you. I’m very inspired by you. So thank you so much for being on truly an amazing human.

Sebastian (00:52:54) – Thank you.

Erwin (00:52:54) – Thank you so much.

Sebastian (00:52:55) – Thank you.