Kevin is a High-Performance Coach, Workshop & Retreat Facilitator, and Podcast Host. He is also described as a Performance Philosopher, Folk Psychologist and Spoken Word Poet. I highly recommend this episode where Kevin and I get into the Old vs New paradigm of leadership and talk about the importance of emotional intelligence for leaders
LISTEN to this pod right here by clicking play or choose your favorite listening platform below. You can also WATCH the video podcast below that! Check out the show notes at the bottom to get more details about the contents of this episode. Enjoy!
Show notes in order of appearance:
- Kevin greets us from Bali
- Kevin’s viral video called Masculinity is Dead
- Old Paradigm vs New Paradigm of leadership
- Why has the paradigm of leadership changed?
- Conscious Leadership in business
- How important is it for a leader to be self-aware?
- Self-improvement and continuous growth.
- Should a CEO show vulnerability?
- Why is it easier for Females to demonstrate this vulnerability?
- Compassion in leaders
- Emotional Intelligence and business leaders
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Below is a transcript of the video podcast created by Seb’s Robot buddy, Zekton. He tends to make mistakes so please forgive him if you find errors or some funky sounding sentences. For the real deal, watch the video or click on your favorite audio Podcast platform above! Enjoy!
Sebastian Naum (00:10):
Man. This was a great episode. I interviewed Kevin Aros. Kevin is a high-performance coach workshop and retreat facilitator and podcast host. He’s also described as a performance philosopher, folk, psychologist, and spoken word poet. He’s a public speaker, freestyle emcee, and founder and COO of lifestyle brand mystic misfit. He truly is a performance philosopher guys, and you will be able to tell by his way, with his words, you can find Kevin playing dangerously at the intersection of Eastern wisdom, modern psychology, philosophy, mysticism, and neuroscience. He helps men and women develop practices that connect them deeper to their purpose and creativity. He’s got Epic content all over social media, and I truly think you’ll dig this episode where we dive into the old versus new paradigm of leadership and talk about the importance of emotional intelligence for leaders. Enjoy the show.
Sebastian Naum (01:06):
Welcome to the show cab.
Kevin Orosz (01:11):
Good to be here.
Sebastian Naum (01:14):
Great to have you, my man. Great to have you, uh, for those of you out there, Kevin is in Bali right now. So likely in a cooler place than where someone’s listening, maybe in a freeway in LA, but, uh, man, what a beautiful place to be brother.
Kevin Orosz (01:30):
Yeah, man. I’m really grateful to be here and I’m glad I made it before the lockdowns happened earlier this year. So I’m blessed.
Sebastian Naum (01:39):
Yeah, man. Hey, I always start my podcast by asking what was your last Oh moment. What is the very first thing that comes to mind when you th when you thought, Oh.
Kevin Orosz (01:52):
Yeah. Great question. I mean, it literally asked to do with being here. I mean, I was doing my workout. Breathwork on the beach here in LA, too. And yeah, just some of the ocean moments I’ve had are insane. Like ocean OSHA, you know, it’s like, like literally feeling grateful and amazed that, you know, while the planet is heating up and people are feeling maybe more fear than ever. Um, I, I am like surrounded by beautiful people. My business is thriving and I’m living on a, on a magical Island in the Pacific ocean. So
Sebastian Naum (02:26):
Very happy to hear that, man. I’m very happy to hear that I’m finding that common theme amongst a lot of people feeling more grateful than ever a lot of, uh, people waking up in different ways that they hadn’t before. So I love hearing that, man. Um, Kev, you, you know, you, you made a, you made a video a few years ago now and it was, and you called it, masculinity is dead. It went viral. It’s, you know, it’s got almost a million views, like over 900,000 views. Did you skip views, dude, I’ve gotten in there and like in a, in a while back, like gone into that, like looking at the, looking at the comments and I mean, you’ve got people praising you, you’ve got people hating you for it. You’ve got you’ve got it all, dude. What, what does that mean in just a few words? What do you mean by masculinity is dead.
Kevin Orosz (03:18):
Yeah. I mean, I thought I broke it down in the video as much as I could, although it was just, you know, it was pure passion, nothing prepared there. It was just a riff. Um, but it struck a chord with people obviously. And, and for me, like really, you know, masculinity, as we define it in modern culture is that it’s, it’s, it’s lifeless. So I don’t mean that like men are dead and it’s over. It’s not like some feminist rap, if you actually listen to which a lot of the commenters, I don’t think did they just kind of like saw what they wanted to see, but yeah, the, the, the current paradigm of masculinity is not serving men first off and then women and children probably also. So that was kind of the core, just, you know, and I don’t have solutions, I have ideas and I have experience, but it was just kind of just proclaiming that and putting it out there.
Sebastian Naum (04:12):
Yeah. And so you mentioned, um, paradigm. So let’s talk about the old paradigm versus the new paradigm, um, in terms of like masculinity, male leadership, just leadership in general. Uh, you know, I think I read a quote here of Makaveli. Um, it is better to be feared than loved if you cannot be both. You know, what is that trigger when you, when you hear that in terms of old paradigm, new paradigm, what does that mean to you?
Kevin Orosz (04:44):
I mean, Machiavelli’s writing in a time of like mass factional, warfare and political struggle in Italy, you know, it’s, it makes pure logical sense because fear can be a more powerful motivator than love in the short term, but in the long term, love will always be a stronger driver. And incentivizer now what’s interesting is that the new paradigm is the old, old paradigm, right? So I really believe that, you know, when you, we lost the village when we lost tribes and tribal living, when we lost rites of passage and initiation and connection to the earth and not just like, Oh, I go camping, but like living with the land and the, and the environment at a deep primal level, which obviously like we don’t, we don’t, we can’t even if we want it to, but we don’t want to go back to that. But some of those values of, you know, and there’s plenty of people today, not many, but there are tribes and indigenous that still have some of these earth based value systems.
Kevin Orosz (05:53):
And what we see is that masculine leaders in those groups are what we call tender aggressive. So there’s still, there’s still, warriors are still alpha as, but they have a tenderness and, and they, and they know how to listen and they know how to wait and they know how to use their intuition. And, you know, the, the Western modern version of leadership or masculinity. And, you know, I think all the way back to the time. So Machiavelli is very present, lost a lot of that. It became purely mental. It became purely reason and logic based at the expense of almost everything, relationships, healthy body, healthy mind, emotional resilience, you know, at the expense of, of conquering dominance, profit, you know, things that don’t hold up longterm and don’t support human beings. Actually, they don’t, they’re not, it’s not about human values, it’s about material or power values. And that’s what we noticed when we look at Western history
Sebastian Naum (06:58):
Yet, and we’ll get more into, you know, conscious leadership and business, but that old way isn’t necessarily the only way to have power or profits right. Or influence. So what, what leads, you know, you say the old, old paradigm is really the new paradigm, right. As you were, I love what you said about, uh, tender aggressiveness, right? About these, these leaders in tribes, even today that exists. So, you know, what, why the old and the new, what makes you call it? What, why the new then, like why the new paradigm, what, what is telling you that we’re having a shift in paradigm? Why are we getting away from that? Are we getting away from that? And if so, why are we, why are we seeing that, that old doesn’t work anymore?
Kevin Orosz (07:53):
Yeah. I mean, I guess the, most of the reasons the old isn’t working are all around us, you know, the male suicide rate, the, the, the, the prevalence of addiction and violent crime by males is like 20 to 40 times higher than females. And then on the other side, you know, now all this is being unearthed about the rampant sexual violence and abuse that has gone on that is organizational and systemic and every culture. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s really a wake up call and you can explain it away as much as you want. Like, Oh, well, these are just bad people, or these are bad circumstances, but like something’s happening when it’s in every single modern culture in the West and the East has their own issue. So they’re, they’re different. And, you know, the, the economic and environmental game has been played out to a point now where it’s like, wow, like, are we going experience a sixth mass extinction while we’re alive?
Kevin Orosz (08:58):
I at 20 X speed, like fast forward speed. And then the economy, you know, like it it’s, what, what set, what season of the economy are we going into? You know, even during Corona, I saw a statistic, which I didn’t fact check, but, you know, mom and pops and, and, and local businesses are down, like 60% is getting decimated by the lockdown. Meanwhile, Lowe’s Amazon, Apple home Depot. Their stocks are the highest they’ve ever been. A hundred percent increased, 200%. It’s insanity. And I’m not docking capitalism. I think capitalism has a lot of good things. It does. And actually it makes a lot of sense, but the systems we’ve created in the male leaders who thrive in those systems and have Coke, graded them, don’t serve humanity wholesale. And so why I say it’s the old, old paradigm becoming the new, the new is a, is a fusion of old and the ancient and the modern stuff we’ve learned through technology, through data science, all the amazing things we have to fuse them to actually forge a new way forward.
Sebastian Naum (10:09):
I like that, that you said, you know, in terms of how to fuse it to move forward, because, you know, I, I think that a lot of people think, Oh, just, you know, capitalism is associated with like this really horrible thing and bad word, but in reality, it’s given us so much progress in all these amazing, beautiful things that are allowing us to have a video conference right now, you know, and like all these great things. And that’s why, you know, I think looking at the new paradigm of conscious leadership and conscious capitalism is the way forward is the true way to, to grow, you know, um, in a better way to actually have progress. That’s not going to burn us out the way that we are being, you know, the way that we’re experiencing this old paradigm, not work.
Sebastian Naum (11:02):
I just want to remind you, if you want to find more content like this, you can visit Sebastian nom.com, that’s Sebastian and a U m.com. You can also get a ton of other marketing resources for myself and my agencies ranging from SEO to social media, influencer, marketing, branding, web development, and more, again, that’s Sebastian nom.com. Thank you. And enjoy the rest of the show.
Sebastian Naum (11:23):
So we’re talking to old paradigm, new paradigm. Um, so I’ll, I’ll give you, uh, uh, you know, uh, compassionate leaders, quote from Nelson Mandela. Our human compassion binds us to one another, not in pity or patronizingly, but as human beings who have learned how to turn our common suffering into hope for the future, what comes through when you hear that?
Kevin Orosz (11:52):
Yeah, I mean, he’s identifying and, and describing the stronger form of leadership and bond, you know, like you can rule people through fear and pain it’s been done for a long time, but those societies always collapse the only ones that survive. And the only ones that over time, even on the micro scale, like in a family or relationship are ones built on compassion, hope, loves real human values that actually have longevity.
Sebastian Naum (12:23):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I think that someone, you know, to, to bring it, to tie it a little bit to business and leadership and business, uh, particularly conscious leadership in business, um, or conscious capitalism, whatever, you know, you, you really, uh, want to call it. Um, how, how important is it for a leader to embody con you know, consciousness as opposed to these old paradigm aspects? So how important is it for a leader to be self-aware for example?
Kevin Orosz (13:00):
Yeah. I mean, if you’re a leader, you know, whether you’re a CEO or, or some kind of executive or any leadership position in business, you know, the, the organization around you is going to reflect you intimately, you know, so I look at it like evolutionary biologists would, it’s a, it’s an ecosystem. And on another level, it’s an organism. So the metaphor is very appropriate. It’s, it’s an organism. So naturally the nucleus, the center of the mandola, the, the top of the pyramid, whatever you want to call it, it reflects down to everything. And the people reflect up to the leader. So if the leader is self-aware and has done some inner work, or is really dedicated to that, it’ll reflect in everything cause that that will become embodied over time. That will reflect to the five people they spend the most time with in the company, I’ll be other leaders. And then that will ripple out and through the entire ethos, it will, it will, you know, if you’re really self-aware, you’re not going to make decisions that take away people’s freedoms or cause suffering unnecessarily. You’re going to feel that because awareness is just, can you feel and sense what you’re actually doing? Can you get the feedback fast and act upon it accordingly?
Sebastian Naum (14:19):
Yeah. I feel that without that self-awareness how do you have that self-improvement how do you have continuous growth without awareness of something needing to be better? Sure. Yeah. Um, Kev, I think that, uh, the subject of vulnerability has been big, you know, over the last couple of years, I feel like there’s like this mainstream aspect almost to it. Um, and so, you know, if, if your, regardless of you’re male or female, or right, um, should a CEO or, uh, a leadership position or someone, you know, that, that has people under them, should they show vulnerability?
Kevin Orosz (15:07):
I mean, short answer, yes. A hundred percent. Um, longer answer is like,
Sebastian Naum (15:14):
I mean, vulnerability,
Kevin Orosz (15:15):
Isn’t the same thing as weakness. Vulnerability is just being honest and transparent. So it’s like, Hey, I’m not infallible. And I make mistakes or I’m, I’m, I’m actually suffering. And I can’t let you in on that process. And obviously there’s, there’s discernment and skill to doing this. Cause if you just, if you just open up and collapse in your pain or something personal and business, that’s gonna, that’s going to actually probably do the opposite of what you want, but measured doses at the right time. The right moment, vulnerability is actually going to strengthen the leadership qualities and, and, and inspire people and just build trust because people are gonna be like, wow, he’s being, you know, it takes balls to be vulnerable. Like it doesn’t, it doesn’t mean that you’re weak. Actually. It means you’re really strong because everybody’s going through stuff. Everybody has something they’re struggling with. The people who pretend that they don’t, aren’t actually stronger. They’re holding back a dam of, of energy. And obviously there’s other places coaching or therapy or martial arts or nature. There’s plenty of places to go experience vulnerability in a different way. But in business, you know, the psychological and heart bonds, that form and a company organization, you know, again, the longevity of, of being vulnerable and having compassion and that, that field created is going to be, it’s going to produce massive results over time.
Sebastian Naum (16:46):
Yeah. I agree. I think it’s really easy to make that connection between being vulnerable and being weak now in which it clearly, isn’t it, you know, I agree with you on that now. There’s also, there is a way to show vulnerability there, you know, there’s ways to do it right. And there’s ways to do it wrong, probably because I think, um, do you feel that you could do it wrong per se? You can, you can show vulnerability at the wrong times. There’s one thing, cause I can come up and say, I can be vulnerable about something that happened to me in the past that I struggled with, but I have now come through and I kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel where I have grown from it. Right. So I can take that into a business aspect and show how we have been vulnerable as a business and then how we can grow from it. Or I could just come out and just show a complete vulnerability and kind of show that I’m lost. And then that can maybe spiral into, you know, the people that look up to me and being like, Oh, our leaders lost, not, you know,
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You know what I’m saying?
Kevin Orosz (17:52):
Totally. And that’s where the discernment comes in. You know, like in the first example, like yeah, using vulnerability as a teaching or storytelling tool is very powerful. It’s how people can connect to that. And that’s a quality of a good leader is they can tell a story that people will be ensnared by and feel like they buy into it. But yeah, I, on a personal level, you know? Yeah. Then the second example, that probably wouldn’t be a good idea because you want to be vulnerable. Maybe that’s too few close associates and just share that, but to the whole group that you’re leading. Yeah. I think the timing of that would probably be really bad. And there’s also a time where that could be appropriate if it was, if it really was that moment where there was a lot of, a lot of confusion, I mean, you can admit you’re lost and you feel that in the moment, but it doesn’t mean it’s true forever and the company is going to just collapse. So there’s still a time and place for that. If, if you, if, if, if you’re really going for it and you want to build that like, like family tight knit village kind of ecosystem in your business.
Sebastian Naum (19:07):
Yeah. I think in general, waiting for the right time and the, and having the right delivery is extremely important to show vulnerability as a leader, as a CEO, whatever position that you’re in, in your company or your group. Um, but I think that the example that you said that there could be a time and a place to show that your loss in a way was kind of been better shown when, you know, when Corona hit, you know, and in the beginnings of it, March or April, where you saw actually you actually saw some conscious leadership out of some big com companies and came out and said, you know, we don’t know where we’re going. We know we don’t know where this is, but we’re here for you, whether it was with our employees or with other stakeholders or with, you know, um, their customers. Right. So I think that, uh, but probably more often than not, it’s best to get through the rough times or have a plan or something before, do you just show vulnerable, otherwise showing that vulnerability will be seen as a weakness. So I think there’s definitely, um, interesting to, to have a balance there. So you touched, uh, on compassion there, cab, um, how important is it for a leader to be compassionate with his or her employees or contractors or stakeholders? Right.
Kevin Orosz (20:28):
Well, again, it’s, if you’re, if you’re talking about building trust and trust, being like a core value of a healthy business, you know, compassion is one of the best ways to do that. You’re going to enroll people and build your rapport at a very deep level of altruism and coming from love, which compassion is a, is a high form of love. It’s just like, you’re not a brutal dictator. You’re not heartless. Even if you’re delivering, you know, some intense information, like you have to lay someone off or you have to make cuts, or there’s a big decision, that’s going to affect a lot of people. You can still make those decisions and still run good business, but you don’t just like take out any emotion or take out the human aspects. You can still bring compassion and people feel that people will, will sense that, and they will trust you deeper, even if they don’t even know it.
Kevin Orosz (21:23):
You know, like the idea like the soul, the social Darwinism idea is actually. And there’s a lot of good science on this now, too. Like, like this whole social Darwinism idea, justifies things like the Holocaust where there’s a pecking order, survival of the fittest, all this stuff. And like, yes, there is a survival of the fittest theme playing out in evolution. But actually if you go deeper into studying the environment and this all feeds back into business, I see the parallels, you know, the, the environment is built on symbiosis at a deep level. And when we don’t even really understand how deep it goes, when you talk about plankton and algae, you talk about mycelium networks, you talk about spores and pollen. Like nature is completely built on a foundation of symbiosis actually, and cooperation, which obviously the animals, maybe aren’t being compassionate, but translate the same things that made that successful into human organization and business. You know, the guy that’s a Savage and ruthless and profit above everything may have is short-term success. That’s really powerful, but long-term, they will always fail because you’ve cut your roots out from under you. It’s built on sin. And so compassion is a number one way as a leader to cultivate that and set the example.
Sebastian Naum (22:50):
That’s powerful, man. Yeah. Why do you feel that it’s somehow naturally easier for women to hold a lot of these traits than for men? Why, why is, I mean, we may be going back to the, to the beginning of this in a way, but why is that, that, uh, female leaders in a way have an easier time displaying some of these conscious leadership traits than men?
Kevin Orosz (23:20):
Yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s many reasons at many levels, you know, some literally are biological. So there, there just is because the woman is the nurture and the mother they have on average more capacity for emotional intelligence, they have more capacity for empathy and nurturance, right? Social bonding, pair bonding. Cause this is, this is how biology, the universe, God, whatever you believe is designing the whole system. That’s how mothers pair bond with children. So it’s really important that women have this women also tend to prioritize relationships over things or plans or ideas, which men on average can prioritize, especially in business. So it will come more naturally to a female leader, but a lot of this stuff has been conditioned. So there’s no reason, you know, again, back to that tender aggressive, you know, kind of traditional alpha role, you know, a man that can also be highly empathetic, you know, to be, to be in coordination in like a hunt scenario.
Kevin Orosz (24:25):
For example, if you’re hunting and your life’s on the line and survival, you actually have to have high empathy to track your team. You’re going to like feel their emotions and process their emotions in the moment you’re going to go for the kill. But in business, you know, empathy, isn’t just about like feeling feelings. Empathy is about high levels of an intuitional decision-making coherence and relationship building, which of course in business is going to be huge if you can do that with the right people at the right time. So yeah, there’s, there’s many factors from biological to social conditioning that have caused that.
Sebastian Naum (25:03):
That’s extremely important, man. I love those points you made at the end of the day. It all ties down to emotional intelligence. It, it, all of it is emotional intelligence and I think it’s the best type of intelligence and it’s really what can embody what a conscious leader can and should be. And you know, it is, uh, a type of leadership I think that we need more than ever. And, um, I hope that people really can grasp the fact that, uh, it’s, you can make just as many profits, just as much money or more and do so, you know, in a way, in a conscious way that gives back to humanity, to your communities, to the environment that establishes trust, you know, and, and just, um, just compassion all around, you know? And, and, and it’s just, gosh, man, such a more, such a much more enjoyable way to live anyway. Right.
Kevin Orosz (26:05):
Exactly. And that’s the bottom line.
Sebastian Naum (26:09):
Yeah. Yeah. It just feels better, man. It feels better. Um, Kev, you just launched an eight week men’s circle called alignment. Um, what does that, what is that about? What do you guys do?
Kevin Orosz (26:21):
Yeah, I’m really excited to just kick that off this week actually. And you know, this has been a, this has been in the making for a couple of years with two of my dear brothers one, who’s here in Bali with me, Luke Cohen and then Dan Regan. Who’s a, he’s an Epic, um, guide and coach in Australia. And yeah, I mean, we’ve done a lot of retreats and in-person stuff together with men and, but we really felt called to serve men. And so alignment is really, you know, it’s eight weeks of accountability, ownership, integrity, and men’s circles. And you know, there there’s a teaching aspect or we’re sharing perspectives about, you know, the new masculine and what works for men and how to actually do your work and come into witnessing other brothers and listening, and also being seen in your pain, in your triumphs.
Kevin Orosz (27:10):
And there’s also the accountability piece where like these men have work to do and accountability pods that they’re doing together as well as, you know, doing the coaching with us. So, yeah, it’s just more that now more than ever so many men, like from the first call, it’s just like, it’s just hard explosion of like, yeah, a lot of men are isolated. You know, they’re running family, they’re running their business, they’re, they’re working, they’re doing their thing, but they feel super isolated because the male to male bonding in most average, small town, America, big city, America, whatever. I mean, we have brothers from all over the world in there, but it’s really the same everywhere. Isolating superficial, you know, the male bonding isn’t based on what’s actually happening for them in their inner world. And so that breeds a lot of the things we’ve already talked about, addiction, numbing, emotional, stunted growth, hiding trauma, you know, or like, or very practically limits on their income limits on their wellbeing, health limits, you know, relationship limits. Like they, they they’re repeating a pattern with women. So this is, uh, yeah, this, this work is needed in 2020. It’s always been needed. But now I think there’s enough going wrong. That more men are more open to being like, wow, this is like, I need this. I want this
Sebastian Naum (28:35):
More than ever brother, more than ever. And, uh, it, yeah, literally kind of ties back to all the things that we’ve been just touching on and talking about. So I’m so glad you’re doing that. I can’t wait to partake in one of these myself, my man. And uh, how can, how can people get ahold of you, Kevin? Where should they follow you better?
Kevin Orosz (28:55):
Yeah. I mean, I’m on a month social, um, Instagram is probably the best place I’m Kev underscore or a salon, um, which is lion and Hungarian. So that’s a good place to go. Also, Kevin auris.com is my website. I have flow state mastery, which is an online course teaching morning routines and like high performance habits and hacks, which is super dope and not just cause ongoing. And then, um, yeah, I, I, I work a lot with, um, high-performing men and women to build better business and relationship practices. And you know, within that, I do a lot of archetypical hero’s journey work and like really like building life plans with people and unplugging them from the matrix and some of their limitations. And I make a lot of content. So I have a podcast as well, which SAP will definitely be on, which is the revolution, which is all about. And a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about, philosophy psychology and evolutionary thinking. That’s awesome, man. You know, they say that, uh, the matrix was actually a documentary. It’s true. Kevin, it’s been a pleasure. My man, uh, I love, love hearing what you have to say. And your message is very much needed. Like you said, always been needed, but in 2020, more than ever. So a you keep doing you, my man, thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.
Kevin Orosz (30:26):
Thanks for others. So grateful to be here, man. Keep rocking it.