Show notes as a general guide below. Somewhat in order and not written in perfect grammar because we want you to actually listen to the show!

Topics Discussed:

• AI Presentation Mishap
• Experimentation in Creativity
• Perception of New Zealand Brands
• Cultural Connections
• Symbol of the Silver Fern
• Māori Cultural Values in Business
• Four Key Māori Values
• Caring for the Land
• Trustworthiness in Business
• Restless Spirit of Adventure
• Conscious Business Practices
• The All Blacks and Competitive Spirit
• Healthy Competition in Business
• Long-Term Thinking in Māori Culture
• Challenges for New Zealand Brands
• Need for Support in International Expansion
• Cultural Nuances in Marketing
• Storytelling as a Connection Tool
• Authenticity in Brand Messaging
• Aligning Values with Market Success
• The Importance of Financial Sustainability
• Value of Storytelling in Business
• Conscious Consumerism
• Quality of New Zealand Products
• Māori Influence on Business Practices
• Authenticity in Brand Storytelling
• Connection and Community in Leadership
• Conscious Leadership in Organizations
• Māori Advisory Group Influence
• Future of New Zealand Brands
• Traits of a Conscious Leader
• Vulnerability vs. Strength in Leadership
• Openness in Leadership

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SebastianNaum.com

Below is a transcript of the video podcast created by Seb’s Robot buddy, Zekton. He tends to make mistakes so please forgive him if you find errors or some funky sounding sentences. For the real deal, watch the video or click on your favorite audio Podcast platform above! Enjoy!

Sebastian 00:00:00 David, welcome to the show.

David 00:00:03 Yoda, as we say in New Zealand.

Sebastian 00:00:05 Love it, love it. glad to have you. It’s been a long time coming. and, I’d like to ask my guests. This is the first question I’d like to ask them is, what was your last oh, shit. Moment. Whatever comes to mind? It could be a good thing. It could be a bad thing. It could be just like. What was the last time you thought, oh, shit.

David 00:00:24 Probably yesterday I was doing a presentation, and I. And I was trying to be a bit brave. I was making it interactive and I was using AI as well. So I was getting the crowd to do a little, like, poll things, about 250 people. And then my, my idea was I was going to grab all that and in real time, put it through ChatGPT and then spit out the answers back on the poll. And the internet went down. So my whole demo didn’t work.

David 00:00:48 But, you know, you just pivot, you know, you came back like a ten minutes later and it was working and I could show them. But that moment you go, oh shit.

Sebastian 00:00:57 So funny.

David 00:00:58 Like love.

Sebastian 00:01:00 That one. When the Wi-Fi goes down, the world falls apart. It’s so ridiculous. But it’s so true.

David 00:01:05 Basic human right. Sebastian, to have wifi whenever we want it. Yeah.

Sebastian 00:01:10 That’s right, that’s right. Well, well, good on you for even just giving that a shot of bringing in, like, an AI, like, live AI thing that you’re after. You know, I was just in, in Cannes, for the Lions Festival, the Festival of Creativity there in France. And, obviously, I a hot topic there and, sort of where AI really is at today and, sort of like where it’s going, but really it’s we’re in this big experimentation phase where we have to be fully experimenting, because no matter what, within like about 2 to 3 years, it’s going to be fully integrated.

Sebastian 00:01:45 And so, it’s just not being scared of it and just just testing and trying and messing up and.

David 00:01:51 Yeah, and try all the different use cases. And some were going to work really well and some don’t. You know, like for me, AI has been really, really helpful for a lot of my work in terms of someone said to me yesterday, it’s not artificial intelligence, it’s assisted intelligence. So if you think of it as helping you do the things that you would normally do anyway, then it’s it’s a great way to frame it in your head. So yeah.

Sebastian 00:02:12 Love it. Really. That’s. Yeah, absolutely. David, where do you feel New Zealand is at today from an international branding standpoint? How do Europeans how do Americans see New Zealand brands today?

David 00:02:26 Fantastic. Well, the answer is it’s a little bit different in different parts of the world on the whole very vital about New Zealand’s brand. And our job is to basically, you know, tell a story of New Zealand to the world to help build our brand and build people’s understanding of New Zealand.

David 00:02:38 Who we are in different parts of the world, have different around different parts of that understanding curve. So, you know, Europeans, for example, know New Zealand, because of the connection with England, you know, so they know that we are, you know, an ex English colony, for example, Americans have got this sort of utopian view, almost of New Zealand. When you talk about New Zealand to many, Americans. You know, I’m talking about now, so I should be careful. But typically in the research work that we do, it’s a very desirable place to visit. It’s almost sort of like this mythical place. And so the brand of New Zealand and the companies and the organisations that come out of it almost inherit some of those, those attributes. It’s quite interesting, actually. We realize that people really love the brand of New Zealand. They really dig it. They like they buy into it, but they actually don’t know that much about the details of why. It’s like, I, I know I like you, but I’m, I’m not 100% sure why.

Sebastian 00:03:31 Interesting. That’s so interesting. Yeah. I think that, I definitely see it. I see I’m biased. Right. Because I’ve been in touch with New Zealand brands for a long time now. But I do think that it has come to a place where people are now. Definitely have a very positive, connection to New Zealand brands, I can tell you. So personally, I’ve worked with brands introduced to me, whether it’s by the New Zealand Trend or Enterprise that I became very connected to New Zealand brands as of about seven years ago. And, yeah, I, you know, I love working with Kiwi brands and Kiwi people. just personally, it’s true. I’m not just saying that. I really mean it. We all say it at the agency. There’s something about it. There’s a difference. It’s funny. So I’m originally from Argentina, but I’ve been in the States for for many, many, many, many years. And we kind of joke around and we say, the US is like Australia and then Canada is like New Zealand.

David 00:04:24 That’s exactly it. It’s an analogy we use ourselves. It’s, you know, it’s like that big brother little brother thing. You know, we sort of very, very closely connected, but at the same time culturally fairly different. And and yeah, I mean, it’s great that you have that connection to New Zealand. We often think when we, you know, one of the things we do at New Zealand Story is try and describe what are the values of the country. Right. And and a big part of it is, as you say, it’s like, how do people feel when they leave this interaction with the New Zealand business or in New Zealand, do you know, what is it? Can we try and capture the essence of that so that that’s part of our thinking as well.

Sebastian 00:04:58 Yeah, yeah. And that’s that’s what it’s all about, by the way. I would say more like nice brother and mean brother instead of little.

David 00:05:06 We know brother that gradually a rupture here like that sometime.

David 00:05:10 Exactly. Yeah.

Sebastian 00:05:11 Yeah, yeah. So yeah, as I was telling you that my connection. So my agency go Global Agency, which is based in LA, we work with brands like Manuka Health, Bow Bucks Edition, Pet Food. Today we work with First Light Farms, Taylor Park Honey and other brands. And anyway, so we’ll run their social campaigns, influencer marketing, growth marketing. And it’s such a pleasure to work with these brands because of not just the people are being who they are, but the values of what the brands stand for. Right? So, you know, I was telling you before we started that I’m on the board of conscious capitalism and in Los Angeles, which is what I’m passionate about, which is about using business force for good. And New Zealand brands almost always seem to embody conscious practices, whether it be sustainability, transparency, community, etc. and you’ve got the, you know, the fern mark on Kiwi brands. and for those here listening that don’t know, like if you’ve ever wrapped a piece of packaging or even if you go to, you know, David’s, New Zealand Story website, you’ll see the, there it is.

Sebastian 00:06:15 There it is. Perfect. Yeah. So if you’re watching on YouTube, you can see it. Little symbol of a fern, which essentially, you know, it stands for. It’s a symbol of trust. Do you believe that people around the world or in the States have actually learned that? Or how do you think people see that symbol?

David 00:06:31 Yeah, well, we know that it is exactly that. It’s it’s actually the most recognized symbol of our country by a by a long way. you know, our flag is very similar to other people’s flags. It’s an east British colony. It’s got that sort of element to it. But the fern mark is to say, for hundreds of years has actually been the association with New Zealand. You know, this is a country that has got an amazing amount of natural forests and, and bush and things like that. And there are ferns everywhere. But the story of the food, the silver spoon, is really special too, because it was used as a pathfinding kind of a wayfinding mechanism by the Maori.

David 00:07:03 So the Maori are our native, our indigenous people, the people who came here about a thousand years ago. New Zealand was the last landmass on the planet to be settled by humans, which is quite amazing. And those those Maori settlers used to use the silver spoon, you know, in the night, walking through the bush, they would they would turn over the leaves of the ferns. And on the bottom of the green fern on the bottom side is silver, and it would reflect the moonlight. And that’s how they use it to, to make paths through the forest. And that kind of symbolism or that sort of, metaphor is almost been, quite, quite well thought of. When the first British settlers came here, they started to bring ferns back to England to, to show, you know, these exotic, amazing, you know, plants. And so New Zealand became kind of the known as the, as the land of ferns for a long time. And even now, today, as you say, we still use that symbol as something that means to us, it’s about trustworthiness.

David 00:07:53 It’s about finding the right path and that kind of thing. So so that’s great. And lots of New Zealand businesses, as you know, use the silver fern. It’s something we license to them to allow them to use that. They put it on the side of their products to say it’s from New Zealand and it’s trustworthy.

Sebastian 00:08:06 I love that, and I know that there’s certain other, specific regulations that a business must pass. And, and I know that that’s on y’all’s website and things like that, but ultimately that that’s, that’s definitely what it does. Is it? yeah.

David 00:08:21 I love you. Done your homework, Sebastian. That’s great. Yeah. I mean, it’s actually origins marks. I mean, New Zealand’s brand, international brand, as we said earlier, it’s the reputation and value is actually very high. Like to be to be from New Zealand gives you a certain extra value if you like. And we know that you can measure it. You know, it’s about 26% extra in terms of the premium price, the premium sort of desirability.

David 00:08:44 And and so therefore we’ve got to be really careful that the people that use it are actually from New Zealand and do, you know, promote New Zealand’s brand Because, you know, we quite often are telling people from other countries who try and use that symbol that they know how to, you know, it’s it sells.

Sebastian 00:08:59 Exactly. Yeah. Very important. And you mentioned Melody, and I was going to ask you this later, but I’ll just ask you now. So how much of Maori culture is still embedded in Kiwi business, do you think, is that still something that is embedded or it’s more so like, no, it’s so modernized now that that’s not really there anymore?

David 00:09:16 Oh no, it’s completely the other way, actually. I mean, I think it’s it’s so relevant. I mean, there’s so many of the values of Maori them. And I’ll go through them in a minute. But many of the values are very, very, modern in their thinking, you know. And it’s someone said to me the other day that what we need is new ways of thinking about old problems and old ways of thinking about new problems.

David 00:09:38 And that’s basically what Maori culture brings, is these sort of values about the ways of thinking about the world. And many New Zealand brands sort of portray that, in fact, that the kind of the brand, attributes that we bring to, you know that we talk about that our New Zealand, we express them and Maori values because they are such a modern idea. So can I go through them now? You said a good idea. Yeah. So we basically we took about four values from New Zealand that make up the kind of country values. And as I say, many of the companies then also use these, whether they consciously do it or sometimes unconsciously do it. Yeah. This one is around Manaakitanga and Manaaki in Maori means hospitality, respect, mana is that is the idea that you have your individual, power, your individual, you know, essence. And to manaaki someone is to recognise that in them and to make them feel welcome to make them, you know, this reciprocity and respect.

David 00:10:32 And so it’s a sense of.

Sebastian 00:10:33 Community as well.

David 00:10:35 Community. So when you come to New Zealand and you feel welcomed and you feel like people are friendly, etc., that’s kind of manaaki at its essence. and again, very ancient idea in Maori them that not to manaaki someone is one of the most important things you can do. You welcome and the next one is called taiyaki, and taiyaki is this. It literally means to care or to to to protect. And again, in Maori culture, there’s no concept of ownership of land. There’s only the concept that you care for the land and that you are the custodian. And so this is this almost this idea of intergenerational guardianship and care for the land and and sometimes care is very, you know, loving and sometimes it’s quite fierce. You know, you really have to care about something deeply and protect it, you know. So that’s another big value is this intergenerational care for for the land. And then, the next one is pono and pono.

David 00:11:31 In Maori, literally means, again, sort of trustworthiness, transparency, honesty, truth. Right. and again, this is something that sometimes we New Zealanders, I think, forget because we are when you do all the international business metrics and things like transparency, ease of doing business, corruption indexes, etc. New Zealand is always one of the top three or 4 or 5 countries in the world on all these things in a positive way, in terms of, you know, being a very high trust environment, very easy to do business here. You know, it’s it’s a small, population. So you can’t really do a bad deal with someone because you’re probably going to come across them again or you’re going to know their brother or whatever, right. So that trust. Yeah. Yeah, it really knows. Not quite everyone, but but you get pretty close. It’s a small. Yeah. And then the fourth, the fourth value which kind of encapsulates a sort of restless energy and this, this sort of challenging of authority.

David 00:12:25 Again, New Zealand being a very young country only about a thousand years old in terms of the humans have been here for that long. You get this essence of sort of restless spirit. And, and in Maori we call this word Pōkaitanga. And Pōkai literally means the youngest child. So the youngest child is like, you know, the rambunctious bit. Like you said earlier, with the two nations, it’s sort of, oh, there’s the big brothers are doing that. I’m going to do something a bit different. You know, I’m going on a to challenge the authority sometimes being a little bit cheeky, if you like. Right. And that’s why New Zealand does things like, you know, we’ve got a huge adventure sports, you know culture here. You know, we’re, we’re adventurers and explorers. All New Zealanders travel the world all the time, you know, like we are. It’s that kind of essence. And the idea is that these four values and going back to your point, they’re very relevant, you know, so they are ancient ideas.

David 00:13:11 But actually in the modern world, who doesn’t want to work with a country that sort of cares about the environment, cares about people, thinks about doing things in a different way, but with the purpose of being caring and open and honest. You know, that’s it’s actually quite amazing that we sort of still have that now. Maori businesses themselves are even more, you know, like proudly displaying those, very overtly displaying those values. But I’d say most Zealand businesses, when you come across them and you reeled off a few, there would have a little nugget of all of those things in them as well.

Sebastian 00:13:42 I absolutely love that. I mean, that is such a dream. If if majority of the world or other countries really, you know, took these values and instilled them this. I was going to ask you specifically about monarchy, Tonga and Pono. So I love that you that you brought that up and,

David 00:14:01 Well, it’s like fits into your, your, what you’re doing with conscious, you know, conscious capitalism, that idea that you are conscious about, the state that you’re in and you’re trying to just, you know, be true to your essence and you can still do business.

David 00:14:14 You know, New Zealand companies still trade internationally. We still have to make a profit. We have to pay for stuff. it’s the same way that we often use the analogy of some of our sports teams. You know, we have this very famous rugby team, the All Blacks. And the All Blacks are the the most winningest team in the history of any sport. You know, they’ve their win ratio was 80% plus. It’s crazy. Yeah. over the whole of history but at the same. And so they’re fierce on the field. They are fierce. They really want to compete and they want to win. But then they they go back and they clean up the sheds. You know, they respect their opponents. You know, they do a weird dance sort of idea at the beginning called a hacker, which is all about actually respecting, you know, it’s honoring the other players by showing them the respect that they’re going to bring their A-game. And so you can have both. You can be, you know, competitive, you can be successful, and you can have strong values.

Sebastian 00:15:05 Absolutely. I mean, I got the chills when you were talking about the haka and like honoring the competitor. And I’m just like, man. Like that’s just such a beautiful way of living in a being, an existing I even think about. It’s funny, one of the first times I sort of, firsthand experience that is one of my dear clients, client partners that we’ve had for for a long time, which is Taylor Pass, honey. Rebecca margetts of Tailor Pass. She basically was telling me about how she knew all of these. All the people from the other Manuka, you know, honey patterns. And they were sort of like friends. And I was like, wait, so your friends with all your competitors, right? Because you were saying like, hey, like everybody knows each other, right? Like it’s still a small world, right? So it’s like you can’t you still it’s good to. And she’s like, oh yeah, we’re friends with this and this and that. And I’m like, man, that’s that’s so beautiful.

Sebastian 00:15:54 Like this sort of healthy competition. Sure. We still, you know, we want to go out and and win the game. And in this case we’re business. You still want to go out and win and generate profits. but ultimately like we’re all sort of like we can all win together as well. Not in sports necessarily, but in business. Yeah, 100%. When it comes to conscious capitalism, especially when it comes to a specific, you know, in this case, for example, like manuka honey. Right. So if manuka honey as the staple of New Zealand honey wins on a global stage, all the there’s plenty to go around for all the brands.

David 00:16:26 Right? That’s almost a truism of New Zealand’s export economy is that the world relative to our economy, the world is infinitely vast, infinite. And so you might as well, you know, see, go for the high value opportunities that, you know, the, the bring others with you to, to help etc.. but the other ancient concept you just talked about there is the idea of long term thinking.

David 00:16:49 You know, like if you just see a business transaction as a one off deal, you know, you are going to try and screw each other over. You are going to, you know, do the dirty, you’re going to take excess profits, whatever. But if you realize that actually business is a long term relationship based way of thinking, and again, that comes from our culture, literally, Maori businesses will have a 100 year business plan. You know, in Western culture, I’m not I’m not kidding. Like I’ve seen 100 year, 500 year business plans. So these are these are organizations that taking this kind of this very long term perspective of we have to be successful for our great grandchildren. You know, we’re not here just to make a quick buck and get out. We’re actually going to think about and when you think of that 100 year plan, you’re thinking about, okay, so what is the land need to look like in the future? You know, what are the living conditions that our workers will be in.

David 00:17:38 You know, how are we making sure that we’ve got biodiversity? under control because we can’t just sort of screw things over now and have a problem in 20 years time. That’s such a different way of thinking about business. But actually most businesses need to think that way, you know? Yeah.

Sebastian 00:17:54 Yeah. And this is why it’s such a pleasure. And we’re so passionate about, you know, working with Kiwi brands and helping them grow in America because that’s that’s what it stands for. And that’s how all business should be. David, how does a New Zealand brand actually get out of the island? Right. So we a lot of the times we have brands from New Zealand reach out to me and to us and, and sort of like, oh we want to grow in the States. They know it’s sort of this massive market and they know that that’s the best way to grow. And and they’re a bit too early for us to help them out. Right. So there’s these things that they have to get done first.

Sebastian 00:18:26 So what are the sort of first crucial steps for either the small or medium sized businesses that aren’t quite there to actually get out of the. Yeah.

David 00:18:33 And this is an interesting because this is sort of another tourism. I mean, we are we’re a relatively large country in terms of our physical geography. You know, we’re about the size of California and Oregon added together. That’s big, but actually it’s big. It’s a big territory, but we’ve actually only got 5 million people. So we’re like one suburb of LA, you know? So it’s yeah, one of our challenges. We have a very small domestic market. Then if you’re if you’re selling products into the domestic market, you pretty much run out of space pretty quickly. So therefore you’ve got to go internationally to grow and, and therefore you get all these challenges that, like you said, Sebastian, businesses that are you know, they’re early in their career, they’re early stage, but they’re trying to export, which is one of the most difficult things you can do is, you know, grow businesses internationally, think about cross-border trade, all the different laws, all the different tax regimes, all that stuff.

David 00:19:19 But it’s just what we have to do. And so we, you know, they need help. You know, they basically need help. the other thing is about the markets that they go into are typically much more sophisticated. You know, in New Zealand you’re selling maybe direct or maybe into one level of channel. So you’re selling into the distribution straight to the supermarkets in, in places like the states, you’re selling into multilayer distribution models. You know, these co-op marketing models that you have to think about. different state legislation, etc.. So, so therefore they need help. So yeah, on the ground and, and around the world there are New Zealand, New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, which is a government agency entity that you talked about, not sorry. they, you know, they have offices around the world and they typically have people from those markets helping those New Zealand businesses like, navigate some of that, complexity. but but I mean, this is, this is one of the, the good in the bad things.

David 00:20:12 I suppose New Zealand is typically again goes back to our kind of really deep cultural values of, you know, challenging authority sometimes being, you know, wanting to be a bit different, but that can often mean is it’s really a good place to start businesses, people like don’t see the barriers they’re going to. I’m going to give it the go, I can do this. I can do everything myself. Yeah, you go internationally. You can’t do anything yourself. You know, like it’s it’s tricky. It’s difficult. You need advice from people like you and your, your organization. the cultures that you’re going into are very different than New Zealand culture. They’re not. You can’t treat them the same. So you’ve got to get that advice from organisations like NCT or, you know, the trade associations, these business councils, peer groups, all that sort of stuff can can help.

Sebastian 00:20:54 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So ultimately the bottom line, if you know, for any brand out there that sort of listening and and New Zealand small or medium size that hasn’t quite gotten out there, it’s just don’t be afraid to ask for help, go to NZ or go to other organisations.

Sebastian 00:21:07 You’ve got to get that help because like you said, there’s so many different layers and nuances to to each and every country and region. Obviously we’re here in the States, which is a massive, massive market. And and so and it’s different for Europe and things like that. And even with us, you know, when it comes to the marketing side of things, a lot of the times brands will say, hey, well, you know, we speak the same language, you know, we can market anywhere in the world that speaks English, for example. And it’s like, there’s no not quite, because there’s so many little. Right, cultural nuances. I remember a lot of the times we were talking about how to how to communicate things with our with our Kiwi partners. It was like, like we say things very directly in the States. Yeah, I was very direct, like, hey, like, this is the best coffee. We sell the coffee. And this is why it’s the best coffee, right? Because, you know, it’s the beans come from here and we have, you know, conscious farming and this and that and so, sure, we’ve got all these sort of we’re going to tell the story, but we’re going to toot our own horn as we stay here in the States.

Sebastian 00:22:05 Yeah. Well the Kiwi’s like, oh my gosh, no, I would never do that. Right.

David 00:22:10 So it’s gonna be quite comical at times actually. And this is again a cultural thing like New Zealand. There’s one there’s a sort of a value of humility and like, yeah, again, it goes back to sort of this, this, this long term thinking. People are very humble. They don’t want to make a big deal. And I was at a trade event once. You know, part of my job, is sometimes to go with New Zealand businesses internationally. And we were actually in San Francisco, so North Carolina and, we’ve got this whole group of investors into the room, a lot of north, you know, imagine these Silicon Valley type. You know, they are, you know, the peak of their game in terms of their work. And we had these New Zealand businesses and and the job was, you know, we’re mixing match like a, you know, dating service trying to get the them to talk.

David 00:22:49 Yeah. And of course the Kiwi businesses are all very humble and sort of standing there with the arms folded a little. And, and one of the guys, I remember introducing them to this investor and, and the investor said, you know, tell me what you do, what you know, what’s your business? And the guy goes, oh, yeah, it’s all right. Like we’re pretty good. And of course, in New Zealand, if I could translate pretty good means you’re amazing. But in America, pretty good means on a, you know, we like, you know, we’re near. So. So they were just miles apart from each other. And the investor, you could see him just going, what the heck is this guy on about? Yeah. And could have walked off. So we always say, you know, and this is again, country by country is very different. Right? When you go into America, you’ve got to bring your A-game. You’ve got to really bring your confidence.

David 00:23:30 You’ve got to bring that kind of hacker, you know that thing. You’ve got to bring that. When you go to other countries like Japan. Humility is absolutely valued, and you should absolutely be, you know, downplaying and very respectful. So it’s different. Markets require different adaptations of of your style, never straying from your true essence and values. They stay the same. But it’s kind of how you portray yourself in those scenarios.

Sebastian 00:23:53 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we would like to do there is how can we help tell the story through other American voices, whether it’s creators or influencers and things like that, connecting them with with those stories of New Zealand, so that the American storytellers really understand the concept and can share those values of the New Zealand brands here in the States. So in terms of sort of sharing the values and identities, like how does New Zealand story help promote New Zealand’s values and identity at a global stage? How are you guys helping with the storytelling? Because storytelling is so big, it’s so important to the rest of the New Zealand brands.

David 00:24:28 Yeah, I mean, that’s the kind of key theory is that, you know, human beings. the way that we connect with people and the way that we sort of make sense of the world is through stories and sounds. Really. Some people think that sounds really, you know, fanciful and a bit trivial, you know. But actually, for thousands of years, that’s how our ancestors have transmitted the truths of the world is through telling each other stories. And so we do the same sort of thing. So our role is, you know, we do we do a bunch of stuff. We do a lot of market research because before you can tell anyone a story, you need to understand what they already think and feel and who they are. So we we do a lot of market research to understand those markets and their perceptions of New Zealand. And then we work with New Zealand companies and, you know, sports teams and you know, education institutes, whoever it might be to help them, you know, and to tell their story in a way that those markets will really appreciate.

David 00:25:15 That again, demonstrates the core values of the country we come from. And it’s a it’s a, it’s a, you know, social media marketing, it’s mainstream media when we can get it, you know, and, and, and bought sort of stuff. and, but mainly it’s actually helping businesses do that themselves because our budget relative, you know, to what we could be doing is tiny. We can’t go out there and do big ad campaigns like some countries in the world do. We just don’t have the budget for it. But if every New Zealand business, like the ones you mentioned are telling an authentic New Zealand story, are showcasing who they really are and doing it in a very proud way, then actually, it sort of, you know, floats the boats for everybody. So that’s the theory is teach people about New Zealand story, show them how to use it, make sure that when they’re doing it and using things like the food mac that you mentioned earlier, that Food Mac is a great way to kind of connote that sort of same value set to other products as well.

David 00:26:09 So yeah.

Sebastian 00:26:10 Absolutely. Yeah. And I think you all are doing an incredible job at it. frankly. Really, you truly are, you know, New Zealand story and just, you know, New Zealand brands in general and in NZ and like sort of the way you all collaborate with each other to tell the story is beautiful. And it’s and it works because it’s authentic and it’s real. And so we’re and we’re in a world that we can really find out the truth pretty fast nowadays. And we could also be we’re surrounded by lies, but if you really dig, you can find the truth. Right? And, and frankly, I’m sort of in I’m in, in LA, right in, in Los Angeles is sort of this the Mecca of health and wellness and all the sort of the, the brands that care and what you’re putting your body matters. So I’m also in a bit of a, quite a little bit of a bubble in that sense, where people are even more informed about the brands that care, and they’re more informed about what a New Zealand brand may stand for.

Sebastian 00:27:06 which I think is one of the reasons that a lot of brands in the world that are very much conscious brands kind of come to LA to sort of launch in the States. Yeah. But I think that that could be, you know, wider spread in the rest of the states here and the rest of the world. well, that’s the.

David 00:27:21 Kind of point of having a set of values that you kind of very overtly think about us because not just because you’re trying to transmit in a kind of selling marketing sense is how you find consumers or or other companies or whatever that are going to be aligned with your way of thinking, you know? So the reason that they go to LA, yes, there’s a big market. Clearly there are people that care about their body, etc. but actually it’s it’s also that they know that there will be a value set that that’s got alignment. And that’s a much easier way to do business with, with organizations or people that are aligned to your set of values. And the sooner you know that, the better.

Sebastian 00:27:55 Absolutely, absolutely. Now, we can have the best storytelling and the most conscious practices and all of these beautiful things. But if a brand isn’t making money and making profits, it’s it’s never going to work. It’s not going to scale. It’s also not going to scale its impact. So what are you all and New Zealand story? Are you able to collaborate with businesses and stakeholders to ensure that economic success is also aligned with the social and environmental responsibility?

David 00:28:22 Absolutely. I mean that you’re you’re 100% correct. Like if you if you’re going out there and doing all these wonderful things and being incredible, but you’re not financially sustainable, then you haven’t got a business. You’re a charity, you know, and there’s nothing wrong with charities. But, but you’ve got to be financially sustainable. You’ve got to make a profit that can then sustain the business in the medium and long term. so for us, the big thing is, you know, the idea of storytelling and the idea of sort of this sort of value stuff can sound, you know, very fluffy and very lovely.

David 00:28:51 But the reality is, you know, cold, hard. It makes a difference to your bottom line. You know, you can demand a higher premium price for the same products and services because of the values that you portray, because of the country that you’re from. you know, all of that stuff and it’s provable. You know, it’s worth about a 25 to 26% premium value, as I said, so. And that’s measurable. You know, you can look at different products, the same product from different countries. This and start to do a kind of regression analysis. So New Zealand businesses that are going into the into the US that really understand how to portray their New Zealand, this hook into those kind of deep psychological, desires of their consumers that make them want to come to a country like this or have this admiration. They can get a higher price, you know? So. Right. Why wouldn’t you want to go down that track?

Sebastian 00:29:42 Yeah. Yeah. It’s and it’s, and it’s worthy of the higher price that it’s deserving to the company, the consumer also as we’re, we’re sort of seeing conscious consumerism grow is willing to pay for that premium.

Sebastian 00:29:56 And also, you know, if a lot of brands in New Zealand are consumables, right? It’s something that we’re consuming in our body. We’re either we’re eating, drinking or we’re putting on our body. Right. So a lot of those products are coming from New Zealand. And so the more that consumers are becoming conscious about what they’re putting into their bodies, they’re also seeing like, hey, sure, I may be paying a premium here at the grocery store, at the store or online, wherever they’re buying it. But ultimately, like, I’m actually spending less money because I’m not going to have health problems when I’m older, you know, like it’s worth not me getting cancer, you know, in ten, 15, 20 years or whatever it is. Well, I.

David 00:30:32 Mean, that’s exactly it. You know, in New Zealand again, you can go you can sort of take that sort of logical path as well, you know, high quality growing conditions, much better for the environment, much better for the, you know, efforts and animal product.

David 00:30:45 You know, our, you know, a lot of lot of countries around the world, for example, feed the, their cows and inside or they have them in feedlots or whatever. New Zealand cows by default are outside eating the natural grass grown from the sand. Or there’s also there’s all these sort of logical arguments as well. After the logical arguments are good, they sort of help out. But actually the emotional things are the other, the hook. But but again, that’s exactly it. You know, you buy these products and services, feel good about it because you’re actually doing good for the planet. You know, we like to say this, this phrase, which wasn’t actually a New Zealand thing, a guy called Jack Maher who you might remember, Jack might have set up Alibaba, but, you know, Chinese, sales platform. Yeah. And at an event we were at once Jack Ma said, the thing about New Zealand is that you’re not just good in the world. You’re good for the world.

David 00:31:29 You’re like, it’s good that there’s a country like New Zealand that exists because the rest of us can can look at you and go, that’s, you know, there’s things you do that we should all be doing. Your products and services are good when we get them. So it’s a really it’s almost become this. We don’t you don’t use it as a campaign. But it’s actually quite a lovely way to think about it, is that we need to be an exempt part, and we need to actually make sure that people are getting that brand promise from us. You know, it’s great to go out there and say, we are great. You know, we care for the environment, we care for people in place. But actually you got to make sure that those consumers are getting that that value exchange.

Sebastian 00:32:02 They have to be getting the value exchange. The stories have to be told in certain ways. Stories can be told differently and different places. That’s part of what we’re sort of talking about here. So maybe told differently in New Zealand than in the States, even though it’s the same story.

Sebastian 00:32:16 so that’s something that’s important, I think, for brands to, to, to keep in mind in New Zealand.

David 00:32:20 Well, that’s why they have experts like you, because the same essence of the same story needs to come across in a different way, in different parts of the world. Exactly right.

Sebastian 00:32:28 Yeah, but the key there, though is that that authenticity and transparency, it’s going to win no matter what. So yeah, brands have to keep that. You know, that authenticity and transparency and and like you said from the get go it’s like stories. You know, it’s truly what connects us all no matter how, you know, advanced I guess and all that stuff. You know, ultimately stories is what makes us feel connected to each other and connection to each other and community and human connection is is forever going to be there because it’s crazy. The worst thing you can do to somebody ever is putting put them in solitary confinement. That’s worse than any sort of torture, is to actually put them in a place with no light and no other contact to humans.

Sebastian 00:33:09 That’s the worst thing, which shows you we essentially need that connection that that survive, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that yeah, New Zealand brands definitely, definitely do that really beautifully. So it’s telling it authentically. And so how about you personally David. How do you personally integrate principles of conscious leadership into your decision making and processes when it comes to interactions with your team?

David 00:33:32 Yeah, I mean, we’ve adopted those values that I mentioned earlier, those sort of there are, as I say, we define them as a values of our country. But we’ve actually as our organization, we’re a small organization is less than 20 people that but our job is, is to say showcase New Zealand to the world. We’ve adopted those practices ourselves. So we’ve got to we hold ourselves accountable to them. We make sure that we are, you know, demonstrating the same sort of values that we that we are asking others to demonstrate. you know, we’re a government funded organization as well.

David 00:34:01 So we’re not we’re we’ve got to be conscious of the fact that we’re custodians of other people’s money. So we’re making sure that we’re spending our money wisely. we, we spend a lot of time with, with New Zealand companies trying to, you know, showcase, help them do their work. So we’ve really that’s a manaaki thing. Like building the manner of others is a big part of what our job is. So it’s those kind of practices in action that we’ve got to really, come back to but yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s part of the ethos of being a New Zealander as well as. Do you think you do think about these things in a different way? We’re very lucky. Also at my organisation is that we have we are connected to we have a Maori advisory group. So these are people, you know, really senior business leaders from from the Maori community who helped guide us on some of this journey because we want to make sure we’re authentic so that, you know, they’ll hold us to account, they’ll make sure that we are doing the right things.

David 00:34:53 we, we meet with them on a regular basis and say, here’s kind of what we’re doing. And, you know, sometimes they’ll say, no, you shouldn’t go down that path, that it’s not the right approach. So it’s it’s useful.

Sebastian 00:35:01 I love that, David, that’s so cool that that you do that I can like I can just picture, you know, CEOs here in LA going to sort of the a Native American tribe to sort of that that would be the equivalent of that. And that’s.

David 00:35:15 Almost.

Sebastian 00:35:15 Non-existent here. Yeah.

David 00:35:17 Oh, every time we do it I learned something, you know, like I, you know, and these people are, you know, normal business people, they’ve got their own businesses, but they’re coming at it from this Maori worldview. You know, there’s a long term inter-generational view, non exploitative partnership based. And, and you always learn a different way of thinking in a, about a scenario or about an ad campaign or whatever it is, you know.

David 00:35:37 It can be quite technical. Some of the things we can be asking them is tactically, could we do this? And they’ll go, no, and here’s yes or no, here’s why. Or here’s the thing you haven’t thought about. It’s really valuable.

Sebastian 00:35:46 That’s so cool. That’s amazing. So talking about sort of these big 100 year, plans that the Maori, you know, inspire. Where do you see, you know, New Zealand brands and perhaps how a New Zealand story may be connected to that in the future of, yeah, New Zealand and Kiwi brands in the world.

David 00:36:06 Well, I think we’re on an evolution. I mean, the brand of New Zealand is, as I say, it’s a valuable asset for us to have as a country. I often think of it, it is. She’s got like this balance sheet, you know, like a big corporate balance sheet. One of the items on your balance sheet is your brand value. And I think that’s that’s always going to be high.

David 00:36:20 And our job is to make sure that stays high But the other big part of it is to make sure that the businesses in New Zealand know how to how to a enhance it, and b get the value from it, you know, so those two things are really important. There’s no point having an asset that you don’t utilize. So the big thing for us now and in the future is to help keep helping the organisations that come from New Zealand. I keep saying businesses because this is a business podcast, but it can be sports teams, it can be, you know, education, tourism operators, whatever. They’ve got to learn, they’ve got to work out that they’ve got this unique selling proposition to use a very Western way of thinking. And how might they use it in a way that, that they get some advantage from. So that that’s probably the journey that we’re constantly on is helping, learning, teaching New Zealand organisations about brand, about how valuable it is about how to work with the international markets and people like yourselves to actually then, you know, take those messages and make them appropriate to the market.

Sebastian 00:37:15 I love that, yeah. I mean, I personally hope that New Zealand brands continue to expand around the world, not just for because of what they stand for and for their own success, but also to be examples for other brands in other parts of the world, you know, to take on and emulate. lastly, David, I want to ask you, what are the top two traits that a conscious leader must embody today?

David 00:37:39 Wow, it’s so funny. I think, you know, I’ve, studied leadership a little bit. And over the last sort of ten, 20 years, there’s this, this, this shift in leadership from being leaders at the front, you know, follow me. I know everything. You know, the the sage on a stage model through this new leadership model of authenticity, you know, vulnerability, but still strength. and so to me, I think that’s a very again, it loops right back to some very ancient ways of thinking, you know, leaders, yes, they have to have they have to set vision and direction, but they don’t have to really they don’t have to be the person that says, I know everything.

David 00:38:16 So I think that to me is leadership is going to be about, okay, being conscious about what way you can add value, what you know, but actually, how do you get the best out of others? How do you make sure that others are bringing their A-game as well? So I’ve loved that this this transition of leadership to this model of the sort of authentic, vulnerable, but very values. You know, that’s where we should hold our, our, our solid truths and our set of values. We shouldn’t be, you know, so stuck on an individual idea that we can’t let it go. Yeah. And I do think that’s one of the challenges we see in the world at the moment is you get these sort of very single minded, you know, people who are stuck on a set of tactical things, but actually they need to let some of that stuff going go back to their core values. Who are they as people?

Sebastian 00:39:02 Well, I that’s beautiful. I told you that would be the last question, but something you said, because I think that there’s this thing about vulnerability that, is becoming almost like a this sort of trending topic for people to that it’s good to be vulnerable, which is great.

Sebastian 00:39:20 And so at the same time, there’s this sort of okay, what does vulnerability actually mean? Does it mean that when I’m going through the shit or I’m going through the problem? Am I crying to the camera and live streaming it? Right. Because that’s happening. Yeah. And then or how can you be vulnerable and then still be that strong leader? How do you see that connection between vulnerability and strength?

David 00:39:43 Yeah, I think you do have to be careful, you know. It’s not performative in terms of, you know, like I, I oh, the script says I should cry now because that would make me feel more vulnerable and appeal to, you know, women over the age of 40 or whatever. that’s, you know, that’s very fake when you see that sort of stuff and you do see it even down in a little bit of the sort of the talk show way of being vulnerable. Yeah. no, I think it’s more the fact that you, you know, great leaders in my mind will admit what they don’t know.

David 00:40:06 You know, changed their minds. When the facts change, that give them a different way of looking at things. be open to new perspectives and ideas. You know, they’re not. That’s not a none of that is a weakness. It’s a huge strength, you know, great, great leaders. you know, and just to pick one area, the great military leaders of the past have been people that will change their strategies because the data changes the people that the military leaders that were the not great leaders were the ones that just had a single minded tactic and just keep going, even though everything was like going against them. It take those analogies into the business world, you know, you’ve got to be able to pivot and change as the market changes, as the information changes. So vulnerability is to say it’s not necessarily this weakness. It’s actually this openness to, admitting that you’re wrong sometimes.

Sebastian 00:40:53 Love it. Love that. Well, David, you know, you truly are a conscious leader. And I absolutely love what you guys are all doing at New Zealand Story.

Sebastian 00:41:01 And, you know, New Zealand brands definitely check out New Zealand Story and, yeah. Just keep doing you appreciate what you’re doing. So thank you for everything. And thank you for being on me.

David 00:41:11 Which is I recognize you. And. Greetings. Do you think, Sebastian, for having me killed off of that?

Sebastian 00:41:17 Thank you.